A few questions...

[Oregononeshot]

Well I'm back with some more questions, even though I don't have a gun yet. I was gonna go and look at a bunch today but mother nature decided to drop freezing rain over the mountain pass I have to travel over.

First question is about cleaning jags. I have been reading about making sure you get the right size. I plan on getting a .54 caliber, is there a certain size jag I need for that size? What about cleaning patches? I don't have time to cut my own so I'll just buy in bulk once I figure the size i need. Is there a size specifically for .54? Last question regarding jags is do I leave the cleaning jag on when I'm hunting? Then take it off if I need to reload in the field? I'm referring to the wipe between shots, or do I not use the cleaning jag on between shot wipes?

Next is regarding powder. I can't find real black powder anywhere within 250 miles. Ordering online one pound of goex will cost me $45. I can buy all varieties of substitute in town. What is better for hunting, real or substitute? I want the most accurate, fastest igniting, and most reliable powder for hunting. I'm leaning towards substitute just because it's cheaper and I can get it downtown, what are your guys experiences?

 

[Coot]

What gun are you shooting? Flintlocks want real black powder. A good chunk of the $45 cost you mentioned is the hazmat fee - which is the same for 1 pound or for more. By buying a larger quantity - say 5 or 10 pounds, you will cut the price per pound as the hazmat fee doesn't increase. If you are only going to shoot percussion, the subs will work. Years ago, before going to real black powder only, I had good luck with pyrodex.

 

[Oregononeshot]

I'm planning on getting a .54 GPR percussion

 

[hanshi]

Subs will work fine in a percussion if you can't get BP. FLintlocks, not so much. Start with a .530" ball and .015" patches. From there you should be able to tell if you need a thicker patch and/or a .535" ball. Shoot it and find your best load before you change anything or sight it in.

 

[Ray-Vigo]

I would advise cutting your own cleaning patches. Once you "get an eye" for the size you need for your caliber, you can cut them very quickly from rags or store-bought cloth. I like flannel type materials, but any half-way heavy duty rag cloth will do. It takes only a few minutes to cut out enough patches for a couple months of shooting for me. You'll save a lot of money this way if you shoot often enough.

The same goes for shooting patch - you'll develop an "eye" for how big to make them if you pre-cut, or you can just cut at the muzzle with a patch knife when loading (I do it that way and it works fine). Believe it or not, the best shooting patching I have used are old jeans I cut down into rags. Pillow ticking is fine too - usually a little thinner.

If you shoot a substantial number of times each year, you can save quite a lot of money doing these things yourself instead of buying by-the-patch.

 

[Oregononeshot]

Thanks guys. Don't cleaning patches need to be the same thickness all the time? I've read dutchs system and I thought I remember a section about the cleaning patch thickness needing to be consistent. Do you use a micrometer to measure your old shirts/rags to verify thickness? Or does it not matter?

 

[Black Hand]

Thanks guys. Don't cleaning patches need to be the same thickness all the time? I've read dutchs system and I thought I remember a section about the cleaning patch thickness needing to be consistent. Do you use a micrometer to measure your old shirts/rags to verify thickness? Or does it not matter?

Just clean the gun and go back to shooting. This is much ado about nothing....

 

[Mean Gene]

Cleaning patch size isn't that critical, I cut my 50cal patches at 1.25ins but my cleaning patches I just eyeball. I cut some the other day while I was sitting in front of the tv, you don't realy need to dedicate a time.

I shoot percussion to and pyrodex has worked just fine for me, I know there are many guys who don't like it for there resons but it's easy to find and works.

I'm using a .020 pillow ticking patch that is working good for me.

Good luck with that weather problem hope improves before the weekend runs out, it's windy as hell here today.

 

[Zonie]

Thanks guys. Don't cleaning patches need to be the same thickness all the time? I've read dutchs system and I thought I remember a section about the cleaning patch thickness needing to be consistent. Do you use a micrometer to measure your old shirts/rags to verify thickness? Or does it not matter?

I believe your confusing cleaning patches with shooting patches.

Dutch doesn't say much about the thickness of cleaning patches in my copy of his book. In fact I only found one mention of them using my adobe pdf search tool.

He does stress that shooting patch thickness does have to be consistent.

 

[Dr5x]

ZONIE,
IVE TOLD THIS STORY SO MANY TIMES I WAS SURE IT WOULD BE IN THE BOOK.
ONCE UPON A TIME AFTER I HAD BEEN SELLING MY SYSTEM ABOUT 7 MONTHS OR SO BACK IN 1982 MY SHOOTING WENT ALL WEIRD THE GROUPS WERE OPENING UP AND GETTING IRREGULAR . I WENTOVER EVERYTHING, U THOUGHT, AND FOUND NO OBVIOUS CHANGES IN MY LOADUNG. I FIGURED I WOULD BE REFUNDING ALLOVER THE PLACE. ONE DAY, "TALKING TO THE RANGE OWNER, I HEARD MYSELF SAY, THE ONLY THING I CHANGED WAS MY WIPING PATCHES".

AHA!. I HAD BEEN USING THOSE BIG GOV'T ISSUEWIPING PATCHES THAT I HAD CUT INTO QUARTERS AND AS THEY WERE RUNNING LOW HAD PICKED UP A BUNCH OF FUZZY FLANNEL WUPING PATCHES AND NEVER THOUHT ABOUT THEIR POSSIBLE EFFECT. USING A MICROMETER I FOUND THAT THEFUZZY PATCHES COMPRESSED TO HALF THE THICKNESS OF THE PREVIOUSLY USED GOV'T ISSUE PATCHES. I SOUGHT OUT A FURTHER SUPPLY OF THE OLD WIPERS AND BINGO THE GROUP DROPPED BACK TO SMALL INCH OR SO I WAS GETTING BACK THEN.
THIS WAS QUITE A SURPRISE AND THE ONLY THING U COULD COME UP WITH IN EXPLANATION WAS THAT THE APPRECIABLY THINNER WIPING PATCH WAS NOY GIVING AS CLEAN A WIPE AND THE RESIDUE WAS BAKING ON THE BORE LITTLE BY LITTLE SO THAT THE BARREL WA CHANGING EFFECTIVE SIZE SHOT AFTER SHOT AND ALTERING THE DYNAMICS OF THE LOADS.

THERE US NOTHING SPECIAL ABOUT THOSE GOB'T PATCHES. THEY WERE JUST THICK ENOUGH TO GIVE A PRETTY GOOD WIPE BETWEEN SHOTS. YOU USUALY WILL SEE BLAK STRIPES ON THE WIPING PATCH WHEN YOU PULLIT OUT ANF THE CRUD IN THE GROOVES IS SWEPT OUT .


THE COMPRESSED THICKNESS OF THE SHOOTING PATCH IS VERY CRITICAL. THE WIPING JUST HAS TO SWEEP THE RIFLING. A GOOD GUESS IS THAT THE WIPING PATCH SHOULD BE ABOUT THE SAME AS THE SHOOTIN PATCH JUST AS PRECISELY SELECTED.


DUTCH

 

[Dr5x]

RJ,
I SEEM TO HAVE OST YOYR ORIGINAL POST BUT IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY YOU ASKED ABOUT JAG SIZES.
IF YOU ARE GETTING A .58 CALIBER RIFLE YOU WI;; WANT A A .58 JAG. THAT WILL BE THE JAG YOU USE FOR LOADING AND FOR CLEANING.

YOU DON'Y NEED A SEPERATE JAG FOR EACH FUNCTION/
WHICH REMINDS ME TO MENTION TO THE GENERAL CONGREGATION THAT HEAVY USE OF A JAG OVER 1500 SHOTS OR SO WILL WEAR DOWN A JAG TO WHERE IT IS NO LOHGER AS LARGE ASIT ONCE WAS AND WON'T BE DOING AS GOOD A JOB IN THE WIPING.
JAGS USUALLY ARE MADE OF A SOFTER BRASS SO THEY WON'T WEAR AWAY ANY OF THE STEEL OF THE RIFLING. MAKES SENSE. HOWEVER THE STEEL OF THE RIFLING CANAND WILL, OVER TIME EFFECT AN APPRECIABLE WEAR ON THE JAG.
WHEN THINGS ARE GOING RIGHT YOU MIGHTMEASURE THE WIDTH OF YOUR SUCCESSFUL JAG SO THAT A FEW YEARS FROM NOW WHEN OUR GROUPS STARTOPRNING UPYOU CAN CHECK TO SEE IF PERHAPS A WORN JAG IS THE CULPRIT.

ROBERT I WISH YOU WOULD ACTUALLY ACQUIRE YOUR IFLE ) SANTA MAYBEA- BECAUSE WHILE YOUR THINKING SEEMS TO BE CORRECTLY ORIENTED YOU ARE GOING TO WEAR OUT YOUR THINKER.

GETTING AN ACCURATE RIFLE ISN'T ALL THAT HARD BUT YOU MIGHT BE BUILDING AN IMAGE OF DIFFICULTY IN YOUR MIND THAT REALLY DOESN'T EXIST.


DUTCH

 

[Oregononeshot]

Thanks everyone for your help! Maybe I am overthinking lots of stuff, but that's easy to do when you are stuck at home with sick kids! I have to go over the mountain on Tuesday for work I'm hoping to stop in and get the gun!

 

[mooman76]

Better to over think than under think it and make a catastrophic error.

 

[smo]

I just use pillow ticking to wipe with.

The same I use for shooting.

Just be sure the wiping/cleaning patches and jag fit snugly.

Enjoy your gun Merry Christmas !

 

[Dr5x]

My warning about "Over Thinking" was because when you consider all the things involved in getting set up for successful shooting it can be overwhelming. I have had peole back away from Muzzleloading because it is waaay to complicated.
It's not.
Once you have worked out what Your Rifle wants, , You know the powder charge, the right thickness of shooting patches and have them all lubricated for maybe a year's future shooting, you don't have to think about any of all that, You just go out and shoot without considering any of those problems. The only time those thoughts return is when your groups start going bad on you and then you have to review your practices.

.
I've known folks to scare themselves off by contemplating all you have to do, But most of them you only once or twice, not every dam time you go out for a day of loud noise and that sweet smell.

Dutch

 

[Rifleman1776]

THE STEEL OF THE RIFLING CANAND WILL, OVER TIME EFFECT AN APPRECIABLE WEAR ON THE JAG.

Agree, Dutch. But it does take a lot of time and use to wear out a jag. I have a jag I made from hard maple, turned on my lathe. Had a fair amount of use and shows absolutely no wear.

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[Dr5x]

Rifleman 1776,.
That isa handsome piece of woodwork.
Mybrass jag became so rounded that i resembled a ball rather than the serrate cylinder of your maple jag.
A police captain in Pennsylvania wrote me because his rifle was misbehaving, roups opening etc..
As far as we could tell, his barrel, which he thought might "shot Out" really showed little wear that he could find using a bore scope , or what you call the wee light you drop down to get an idea of therifling's condition..
I finally asked about other things like tightness of sites attached to the barrel etc and finally got down to his jag of which he was very proud as it was the same one he had been using since he started. . I describing it he said the indentation were so worn it didn't look much like a jag anymore.
I din;t think my suggestion would work but I suggested he try a new jag.

About a week later I got two targets in the mail One with a bad group marked BEFORE and a second target with a tight group marked AFTER.

He wasn't sure but he felt he had fired that rifle somewhere between 1500 and 2,000 rouds using that jag.



Your hard maple jag doesn't even show any staining. Thanks for the story of your experience.

Dutch Schoultz

 

[Dr5x]

An odd thing,
I have gotten several Christmas cards from unknown people located in obscure locations like Sidney Nebrask and Pyerre, South Dakota.

{ must assume that these are from the Good Popele of the Forum as all other acqINTANCE ALMOST CORRECTLY HAVE ASSUMED I HAVE DEPARTED THIS EARTH ORBECOME PART OF IT.
NOW IF YOUR STYLE OF NOMENCLATURE ON THE FORUM IS RIPPED SHORTS OR FIRE BOTTOM I WILL HAVE A HARD TIME EQUATING YOU WITHTHE LOVELY CARDS I HAVE RECEIVED. PARTICULARLY FROM THE AMAZINGLY FERTILE FAMILY OF THE DAKOTAS..
MY WARM FEELING IS DIRECTED BROADLY THAT I AM SURE LITTLE REACHES THE APPROPRIATE FOLKS,
IF MY SPELLING ANNOYS YOU PLEASE CORRECT AND RETURN AT LIESURE,

DUTCH SCHOULTZ SHUT IN TRAINEE

 

[Dr5x]

SOMO/
What kind of groups do you get bench rest at 50 yards?
Idlecuriosity on my part.. I would like to run an experiment with you if you are interested>


Do me a target or two with five shots fired at a bull that's about 3 inches in diameter.
Maybe you and U, particularly me might learn something/

What do you say.

DFutch

 

[Dr5x]

Rifleman's Handsom Maple wood Jag discussion reminded me after the usual few hours that while Browsing Brownell's tremendous supply o f odds and ends of shooting equipment that among other things they had some bright and shiny jags apparently made of steel which I am not sure would be a good thing for the rifling of your barrel. If perhaps they were made od aluminum they might be OK.

Just thought.

Dutch