3f Loads For 58 Cal

[BrownBear]

I'm working out the kinks in a new (to me) 58 cal Hawken.

Lyman lists 2f or Pyro RS and Select. But I happen to have a reasonable supply of 3f Goex at the moment, and I was wondering. I recall that some of you folks are using Goex 3f or Pyrodex P, but darned if I can find the threads. So if you don't mind repeating yourself........


Details are: 36" barreled GRRW Hawken with a "choked" bore. I've been using .562 with ticking and LV lube because it barely starts with a .570 and .010 patch, and a bare .575 ball engages the rifling. Takes a sharp smack on the short starter to get it going with the .562/ticking combo, but then it's easy after the first 3 or 4 inches. There's simply no way to get that combo going down the bore with the ramrod alone, so it's tight.

 

[renovato]

The general rule when using FFF is to back your loads down 10% or so from how much FF you would use. For a .58, you might start in the 50 grain range and work up.

 

[gjkershul]

I have had great sucess shooting .575 sized Lee and Lyman Parker Hale Minies out of a Euroarms 1861 Enfield Musketoon using a 40-45 grain 3F charge of Goex at monthly club shoots as a target load. Other club shooters have been using 70 grains of 2F with good sucess but rapid fouling and some blown skirts. In one case the skirt stayed in the breech and caused ignition problems until removed.
The service charge for Mini projectiles as far as I know in rifle muskets was in the 60-70 grain range using musket powder which again as far as I can find out was like 2F.
The literature reports the use of much heavier charges by sportsmen ,such as the late Val Forgett of Navy Arms, using heavy skirt Minie projectiles out of a Hawken platform.
Please keep the forum advised of your experiences using 3F and Minie projectiles out of Hawken platform.

 

[MikeChapin]

I have a full stocked Hawken .58 with a Green Mountain Barrel. I use a .562 with a .032 denim patch. It takes a thump from the short starter to get into the barrel but it goes down well after that.

I use 50 grains 3F for 25 and 50 yard shooting. I stoke it up to 90 grains 3F for 100 yards and hunting. The 50 grain load will tear one big, ragged hole for a five shot group at 50 yards off the bench. At 100 yards it will keep everything in one of those small sticky targets. That's mostly because of what I can discern at 100 yards rather than what the rifle will do.

I would bench it at 50 yards and start at 50 grains and work up from there to see what gives the best groups. I usually up the load to have it hit the same place I do at 50 yards. For the most part the tightest group for that range comes in when I get the load up to where it is hitting dead on.

One benefit of the light load is that the rifle will not beat you up if you are shooting all day at a match.

 

[oldarmy]

My friend is a barrel maker/designer with Green Mt rifle barrel.
He told me in very clear terms about using 3f in .50 larger barrels..IE DON'T DO IT." I would have better results using 2f"
However, you are saying you have had good results using 3f in larger bores.
Roundball, I respect you opinion. You have spent allot more time, shooting and recording the results then me.
Do you have a recommendations for a .50 cal colerain. 38" slow twist using 3f.
Target shooting at 100yds?

 

[tg]

I think I was useing about 70-80 gr. 3f in a .58 rifle I use the same in a .58 Fusil,there is a bit more of a pressure spike with 3f over 2f but anymore about everyone I know uses 3f up to and often including .62 cal. having said that some people have found that 2f gives better accuracy in the larger bores, the reduced load as mentioned above is a good rule of thumb.

 

[MikeChapin]

Can't tell you about a Colerain as I don't have one. The .50s I have are a 42" GM, a 32" Douglas and a 42" Getz. The GM likes 50 grains at shorter range and 75 at 100. The Getz likes 45 grains for shot range and 65 grains for longer. The Douglas likes 40 and 65 grains for the loads.

 

[BrownBear]

Can't tell you about a Colerain as I don't have one. The .50s I have are a 42" GM, a 32" Douglas and a 42" Getz. The GM likes 50 grains at shorter range and 75 at 100. The Getz likes 45 grains for shot range and 65 grains for longer. The Douglas likes 40 and 65 grains for the loads.

Dandy start for a new thread, doncha think? This one's about 58 caliber and 3f.

 

[oldarmy]

Point taken :v

 

[BrownBear]

Cool! I'm interested in what you're saying for my long range plans to build a premium 50, so sorry if I sounded snippy.

On the 58 and 3f question, I'm curious if anyone has noticed any difference in their patches when comparing 3f and 2f. I've shot just a little of the 3f now (80 grains), and I notice that the base of the patch right below the ball is lots "browner" than with 2f. Nowhere near burning through, but definitely looks like it's getting hotter back there, probably as you would expect. On material lighter than ticking, maybe that would be an issue.

Idle thoughts at an idle moment......

 

[rabbit03]

I have been shooting my Big 58 Hawken with 100grns of 3Fg and also my light bench rifle in .58 cal with the same load with great results.

I can respect what was said about GM saying not to use the 3Fg but remember they are liable if something goes wrong too.

I use a much tighter patch/ball combo though in both rifles, .575 ball with .023 thickness ticking. I mainly use the teflon coated material but have also used it with Hog Lard with the same exact results.

Your patches might burn through since the patched ball combo is not as tight as mine though. The patches from each, the 3Fg and the 2fg all look the same too when recovered.

Good luck

rabbit03

 

[BrownBear]

Wow!

Those are tight loads, depending on your bore size. With the choked bore on my GRRW a .575 won't go in on its own with no patch at all. I haven't tried driving one in anyway, tho. A .570 just barely drops down the bore, and any irregularity in the ball's surface hangs up. As any of them go down the bore you can feel them slowly ease up on the pressure required. Takes longer to go away than the regular pressure required to seat a patched ball in a straight bore. You feel the same thing in reverse when extracting a patch while cleaning.

I'm in contact with the GRRW smith that built it and here's part of what he told me about the GRRW barrels and choking:

"I can tell you that the secret to the accurate barrel is the way they were bored and rifled.
They were first drilled as usual. But what is unusual is that they were never reamed as most if not all barrel makers do now - and did then. We first cut the lands and then cut the grooves depending on the bore size. It's been a long time but as I recall the big bores had the grooves cut first. This made for tool marks that ran the whole length of the barrel on both lands and grooves in the direction of the bullet travel. Also, as the cutter head advanced towards the muzzle oil pressure and some cuttings put a minute amount of pressure on the cutter and you ended up with a sort of choke near the muzzle. This was accidental and was discovered while "slugging" a barrel to check for rough spots. Once found on a test barrel we noted it on all of them and theorized the above means by which it occurred. The result was a barrel that needed just about zero break in and was wonderfully accurate as you have discovered. To the best of my knowledge no one is producing barrels in this manner. "

 

[MikeChapin]

...

On the 58 and 3f question, I'm curious if anyone has noticed any difference in their patches when comparing 3f and 2f...

I have not seen much difference but I use pretty thick patching on my .58, .032 denim. I used to use KIK 2F and have been using GOEX 3F for the last year or so. The KIK 2F is almost as hot as the GOEX 3F and both look about the same.

 

[BrownBear]

I've got another 58 cal on the way- this one without the choked bore. It's going to be really interesting for me to compare the two guns. The second is supposed to be just fine with .570/.018, while I can't even get that started in the one I have now. I'm guessing I'll also be able to use my .562's with heavier patching such as yours Mike.

I have to wonder how many of the things I've learned so far are due to the choked bore. Should be interesting!

 

[slowpokebr549]

I have very good results with 3f in my Zouave. I use a .570 round ball and an .18 patch. Lard and beezwax is the lube. I usually hunt with 80 grains of Graf. I get less fouling and really no practical difference in accuracy compared to 2f.I did however, have some trouble with blown skirts with stiff loads of 3f and minnies.