Noob issues

[Golden Child]

Hey all, I have a mid 70's 50cal TC Hawken that my dad built when he was a teenager for my grandpa. Gramp never shot it, so it was brand new 5 years ago when I started tinkering with it. I've done countless hours of research, and am still struggling. The bore appears bright and shiny (no bore scope) I polished the crown and I still can't get it to group consistently. 250 gr REAL over 56gr vol Pyro RS will make a 1 inch group at 50 one day, and an 11 inch the next. .490 roundball with 015 patch takes 3-4 good smacks with a starter, then goes down nice, but i will have 2 shots touching, and the 3rd 5 inches off. .490 ball with 010 patch loads nicely, push the ball in about halfway up the ball with my thumb, and a decent amount of pressure on the ramrod runs it home. With this combo I get 3-6" groups at 50 yards and my patches have rips in them. The 1 was literally a round spot from behind the ball attached to a 4" thin strip. I've only recovered patches from this 1 load (.490 ball .010 patch) as I've only recently learned that the patch has a story to tell. I've tried a few 320 gr REAL, but the "group" looked like you shot 00 buckshot out of an open choke at 30 yards. I run a brass brush and dry patch down the barrel between groups. I've also tried not brushing or swabbing at all, and also every shot... not much difference. Swab every shot seemed to make the groups a little better, but still not where I want them, and although that would be similar to a hunting scenario, it seems most guys can get a decent 3-5 shot group between swabs.
I've tried everything from 25gr to 85gr by 5 gr increments, and 55 measured or 2 pulls on my powder dispenser (56gr vol) shoot "best"

I prelube my patches and wads and store them in an old primer tin for the patches, and plastic bag for the wads.
I've always ran felt wads behind the conicals, I bought a .512 punch and made my own, which helped quite a bit with accuracy, but the consistency is still awful. I use homemade lube. 3 parts rendered deer fat, 3 parts homegrown bees wax, 1.5 parts XV olive oil. (No olive trees in MN...i had to buy that) consistency is comparable to butter at 60 degrees or so.

I also seem to get a high amount of hang fires after 6-9 shots. Usually the first 2-3 groups go well, then I get at least 1 hang fire every 3 shot group.

I'm new-ish to BP, but have been handloading centerfire for over 20 years, and can shoot impressive groups with any of my rifles out to 600. I don't think it's me causing fliers.
Last year my son and I built a traditions deerhunter 50 cal for him, and his shoots amazing at 50 yards with 28,56,84 grains vol. I don't get it.
My goal is to have a max 4" group at 100, maybe a 6-8" at 150 so I can be 100% confident at 100 and in. Most deer will be shot 75 or less. With my centerfires I have no issue shooting yotes or varmints at 450-600, but I won't shoot at a deer past 300. Most are 100 and in. IMO it's called hunting, not shooting.

How many separate issues do I have? What am I missing? Help!?

 

[Surfinator58]

I would try swabbing after every shot if it's accuracy you are after..smokeless powder and copper jackets are worlds apart patched rb and blackpowder...

 

[Golden Child]

Addl info:
Rifle is a percussion, nearest I can tell 1:48 twist.
I've tried several 400,500 gr bullets, but ended up melting em down into round ball after I bruised my palm so bad I could hardly move it for a week. I'm a farmer, so my hands aren't exactly sensitive or tender.

 

[Surfinator58]

Have you checked the torque on the. Rear sight base and how much tension is on the wedge ...

 

[Golden Child]

I would try swabbing after every shot if it's accuracy you are after..smokeless powder and copper jackets are worlds apart patched rb and blackpowder...

Thanks for the reply!
I've tried swabbing every shot and it does improve my groups a little... but one day I've got a 1"group dead on at 50, the next day it's a 6,8 or 12" group and up to 6 inches off in any direction. Sights are tight. I ordered a tang peep to replace my rear sight. I'm at my wits end. I consistently push the ball til it stops, and give 2 light taps to make sure the ball is seated firmly. I realize bp and smokeless are worlds apart, but having started with smokeless and knowing that consistency is of the utmost importance, I don't understand what's going on and how one guy can dump 50 gr for plinking and 100gr for hunting and all's well, and I can't get enough confidence to hit a garbage truck consistently at 100 yards.

The end 2-3" of my barrel seems significantly tighter than the rest. Is this normal? Or is it just due to the added pressure needed to fold the patch into the grooves and whatnot?

 

[Britsmoothy]

Steel wool that barrel or scotch bright it. It needs polishing. Whilst you are doing that check the barrel nipple drum, snail or bolster is not bearing down on the lock plate. If it is relieve the lock plate so you can at least get paper to pass through the gap.
And DONT use oil for storage. And get more powder in it instead of rabbit charges!
Best wishes.

 

[Jim]

One of my TC’s had a barrel that would “float” left and right in the forend, so . .
I bent the wedge in a slight arc and placed a bit of glass bedding in the barrel channel in the vicinity of the wedge.
Seemed to work as accuracy improved.
Also, that “hooked breech” business could stand tightening up. More glass bedding is in my future.

 

[cornstalk]

If your son is around let him fire the 50 a dozen times with your best load and see if he experiences the same thing. That will either eliminate or identify you as the problem.

 

[Golden Child]

Have you checked the torque on the. Rear sight base and how much tension is on the wedge ...

I've not checked torque... what's it supposed to be? I did notice that the wedge has gotten harder to remove as of late. Mother nature in MN has been off her meds again. 42 yesterday, - 20 with windchill today. I chalked it up to being raining or snowing the last several times I went hunting. But I don't typically practice in wet weather. Temps between 15 and 45 is my usual practice weather.

 

[William Lincoln]

Be sure barrel is correctly coned and bore polished. I think your powder loads should not
exceed 130 gr top Less powder is ordinarily greater accuracy under 100 yds. Have hunted with
Hawkens for half a century. The rifle tops out at 120 yds. Try at least 3 different conicals
for accuracy. Try the other advice on the forum. The barrels on early repros may not be what
you get today, say on a CVA Hawken with Bergara barrel even a TC. How was it stored?
Best of luck.

 

[biliff]

" I run a brass brush and dry patch down the barrel between groups"

This statement stands out as being different from common practice. I'm a spit patcher, not a swabber (whole 'nother topic) but brushing and swabbing with a dry patch is a departure from just swabbing with a damp patch. A dry patch is probably not adequately dealing with any fouling buildup.

 

[SDSmlf]

How many separate issues do I have?

Honestly, believe you are getting frustrated changing too many different things, with no real idea as to what each change is having on your accuracy. Most TCs like you have will shoot patched roundballs accurately, and a good number will work well with shorter conicals like the Lee REAL….

I would suggest you start with a 65 or 70 grain charge of blackpowder (it ignites easier than Pyrodex) if you have it. I would use the .490” roundball with your .015” patch (make sure it is 100% cotton with a tight weave) with a wet patch lube (moose milk, windshield washer fluid or spit for example). With a wet patch you should not have to swab, a possible reason for hang-fires. Swabbing can push the crud down the bore and clog up the fire channel. When you clean your bore, make sure the fire channel is clear. If you use oil to protect the bore, store with the barrel pointed down, at least for a day or two, so any oil drains away from the breech area. Also a good idea to clean the bore with a solvent like alcohol before loading to make sure all the oil is gone. Excess oil in the bore can turn to tar when the gun is shot, clogging things up.

With luck and the above load you you should get close to one inch groups at 50 yards on a consistent basis. It seems to work well in most TCs. Once you have constancy, then consider playing with different sized roundballs, conicals, lubes, patches, wads, powders, etc, trying to only change one thing at a time. Makes it easier to know what works and what doesn’t.

I can't get enough confidence to hit a garbage truck consistently at 100 yards.

Hopefully, when garbage truck season opens (no open season around here), you will be ready.

 

[andy52]

That picture is hilarious, it's like hey someone is driving off with my lunch....

 

[recurvebill]

Hey all, I have a mid 70's 50cal TC Hawken that my dad built when he was a teenager for my grandpa. Gramp never shot it, so it was brand new 5 years ago when I started tinkering with it. I've done countless hours of research, and am still struggling. The bore appears bright and shiny (no bore scope) I polished the crown and I still can't get it to group consistently. 250 gr REAL over 56gr vol Pyro RS will make a 1 inch group at 50 one day, and an 11 inch the next. .490 roundball with 015 patch takes 3-4 good smacks with a starter, then goes down nice, but i will have 2 shots touching, and the 3rd 5 inches off. .490 ball with 010 patch loads nicely, push the ball in about halfway up the ball with my thumb, and a decent amount of pressure on the ramrod runs it home. With this combo I get 3-6" groups at 50 yards and my patches have rips in them. The 1 was literally a round spot from behind the ball attached to a 4" thin strip. I've only recovered patches from this 1 load (.490 ball .010 patch) as I've only recently learned that the patch has a story to tell. I've tried a few 320 gr REAL, but the "group" looked like you shot 00 buckshot out of an open choke at 30 yards. I run a brass brush and dry patch down the barrel between groups. I've also tried not brushing or swabbing at all, and also every shot... not much difference. Swab every shot seemed to make the groups a little better, but still not where I want them, and although that would be similar to a hunting scenario, it seems most guys can get a decent 3-5 shot group between swabs.
I've tried everything from 25gr to 85gr by 5 gr increments, and 55 measured or 2 pulls on my powder dispenser (56gr vol) shoot "best"

I prelube my patches and wads and store them in an old primer tin for the patches, and plastic bag for the wads.
I've always ran felt wads behind the conicals, I bought a .512 punch and made my own, which helped quite a bit with accuracy, but the consistency is still awful. I use homemade lube. 3 parts rendered deer fat, 3 parts homegrown bees wax, 1.5 parts XV olive oil. (No olive trees in MN...i had to buy that) consistency is comparable to butter at 60 degrees or so.

I also seem to get a high amount of hang fires after 6-9 shots. Usually the first 2-3 groups go well, then I get at least 1 hang fire every 3 shot group.

I'm new-ish to BP, but have been handloading centerfire for over 20 years, and can shoot impressive groups with any of my rifles out to 600. I don't think it's me causing fliers.
Last year my son and I built a traditions deerhunter 50 cal for him, and his shoots amazing at 50 yards with 28,56,84 grains vol. I don't get it.
My goal is to have a max 4" group at 100, maybe a 6-8" at 150 so I can be 100% confident at 100 and in. Most deer will be shot 75 or less. With my centerfires I have no issue shooting yotes or varmints at 450-600, but I won't shoot at a deer past 300. Most are 100 and in. IMO it's called hunting, not shooting.

How many separate issues do I have? What am I missing? Help!?

Is that PYRODEX R S as old as the rifle !!! Could clearly be the problem . As for those R E A L bullets , i ran right out and bought a R E A L bullet mold , for my T.C. .50 !! P.O.S. !! Guy that sold it to me wouldn't take it back ! Could swear he was giggling as i walked out ! Anyway , get some good powder , and "start over" , with a proper conical !!!!!!

 

[rafterob]

For swabbing between shots (if you feel you need to) do not use the brass brush. I guarantee that is your misfire problem. Use a damp patch, spit or water (or water based cleaner) run the patch down the bore and let it sit a few seconds. This allows some time for the moisture to affect the fouling. Do not "pump" the patch up and down! Now remove the patch, flip it over and repeat. Follow the damp patch with one dry patch-both sides. This is the method you should use whether you swab between every shot or every 15 shots. I would stick to roundball and the shorter TC Maxiballs (actually I would only use round ball). Muzzleloading takes lots of practice to be consistent. When you keep trying different variables you are just prolonging the learning curve.

 

[SDSmlf]

That picture is hilarious, it's like hey someone is driving off with my lunch....

More like off to the Promised Land….

 

[FPDoc]

[

Honestly, believe you are getting frustrated changing too many different things, with no real idea as to what each change is having on your accuracy. Most TCs like you have will shoot patched roundballs accurately, and a good number will work well with shorter conicals like the Lee REAL….

I would suggest you start with a 65 or 70 grain charge of blackpowder (it ignites easier than Pyrodex) if you have it. I would use the .490” roundball with your .015” patch (make sure it is 100% cotton with a tight weave) with a wet patch lube (mouse milk, windshield washer fluid or spit for example). With a wet patch you should not have to swab, a possible reason for hang-fires. Swabbing can push the crud down the bore and clog up the fire channel. When you clean your bore, make sure the fire channel is clear. If you use oil to protect the bore, store with the barrel pointed down, at least for a day or two, so any oil drains away from the breech area. Also a good idea to clean the bore with a solvent like alcohol before loading to make sure all the oil is gone. Excess oil in the bore can turn to tar when the gun is shot, clogging things up.

With luck and the above load you you should get close to one inch groups at 50 yards on a consistent basis. It seems to work well in most TCs. Once you have constancy, then consider playing with different sized roundballs, conicals, lubes, patches, wads, powders, etc, trying to only change one thing at a time. Makes it easier to know what works and what doesn’t.

Hopefully, when garbage truck season opens (no open season around here), you will be ready. View attachment 108117

A lot of good suggestions and great photo. Can see the thought balloons..
"This next block always has really great garbage."
"Bob's gonna be so ****** he missed the truck today"
"Worth every penny I pay this driver"
"The quality of garbage today just isn't like when I was a kit"

 

[n.h.schmidt]

All good ideas.No bad ideas. The tore up patches are telling. What are you using? They should look good enough to reuse. Polishing the bore may very well help greatly. I have used steel wool and /or scotchbright for this on my GPR when it was new.Man the lands were as sharp a razor blades. I also use canvas for patching. Really tough but hard loading. I use mostly Pyrodex P and am happy with it. I can shoot a match with it no cleaning needed. No rust problems either.

 

[44Bro]

The way the 🗑 is just sitting there chilling, I'm Thinking the said "Hey driver, let me off at the dump."

 

[stikshooter]

Hey all, I have a mid 70's 50cal TC Hawken that my dad built when he was a teenager for my grandpa. Gramp never shot it, so it was brand new 5 years ago when I started tinkering with it. I've done countless hours of research, and am still struggling. The bore appears bright and shiny (no bore scope) I polished the crown and I still can't get it to group consistently. 250 gr REAL over 56gr vol Pyro RS will make a 1 inch group at 50 one day, and an 11 inch the next. .490 roundball with 015 patch takes 3-4 good smacks with a starter, then goes down nice, but i will have 2 shots touching, and the 3rd 5 inches off. .490 ball with 010 patch loads nicely, push the ball in about halfway up the ball with my thumb, and a decent amount of pressure on the ramrod runs it home. With this combo I get 3-6" groups at 50 yards and my patches have rips in them. The 1 was literally a round spot from behind the ball attached to a 4" thin strip. I've only recovered patches from this 1 load (.490 ball .010 patch) as I've only recently learned that the patch has a story to tell. I've tried a few 320 gr REAL, but the "group" looked like you shot 00 buckshot out of an open choke at 30 yards. I run a brass brush and dry patch down the barrel between groups. I've also tried not brushing or swabbing at all, and also every shot... not much difference. Swab every shot seemed to make the groups a little better, but still not where I want them, and although that would be similar to a hunting scenario, it seems most guys can get a decent 3-5 shot group between swabs.
I've tried everything from 25gr to 85gr by 5 gr increments, and 55 measured or 2 pulls on my powder dispenser (56gr vol) shoot "best"

I prelube my patches and wads and store them in an old primer tin for the patches, and plastic bag for the wads.
I've always ran felt wads behind the conicals, I bought a .512 punch and made my own, which helped quite a bit with accuracy, but the consistency is still awful. I use homemade lube. 3 parts rendered deer fat, 3 parts homegrown bees wax, 1.5 parts XV olive oil. (No olive trees in MN...i had to buy that) consistency is comparable to butter at 60 degrees or so.

I also seem to get a high amount of hang fires after 6-9 shots. Usually the first 2-3 groups go well, then I get at least 1 hang fire every 3 shot group.

I'm new-ish to BP, but have been handloading centerfire for over 20 years, and can shoot impressive groups with any of my rifles out to 600. I don't think it's me causing fliers.
Last year my son and I built a traditions deerhunter 50 cal for him, and his shoots amazing at 50 yards with 28,56,84 grains vol. I don't get it.
My goal is to have a max 4" group at 100, maybe a 6-8" at 150 so I can be 100% confident at 100 and in. Most deer will be shot 75 or less. With my centerfires I have no issue shooting yotes or varmints at 450-600, but I won't shoot at a deer past 300. Most are 100 and in. IMO it's called hunting, not shooting.

How many separate issues do I have? What am I missing? Help!?

If you want the best advice , go to Idaho Lewis (might be on this site) for sure on Modern muzzle loaders .He has the answer to anything sidelock and demonstrates most all with video on boob tube The man shows what to do with TC s and especially TC Renegades (applies to Hawkens TOO) ! Round ball to conical /wads lubes and shoots to 1200 yds with a 1-48 twist , his round ball shooting ain't bad neither!!!!!!!!!! Lean from the best ,accuracy will follow so try looking up sidelocks on the site I suggested as lots of folks here know who I talking about . No brag just fact/Ed