1821 flintlock/percussion convertion

[sckeg]

Hello everyone,
I am hoping that you folks could help me with this piece I bought a while back. It came to me through a gunsmith friend from an estate and since the owner had died the history of it was lost. I am trying to find out more about it, what its value may be and most importantly how to preserve it correctly. What I know is that it started off as a flintlock and was converted to percussion. I know that it was a British naval gun and at some point was transferred to the US military. It is in good working order, the percussion nipple is in like new condition and is threaded and there is no rust that I can see. There are several marking on the it that I will try to describe, but please excuse me if I get some of the nomenclature wrong as I am more of a modern gun guy and new to the old world tech.
Along the back strap it is marked “M 1821”. Most of the brass fittings are marked with a crown over “IP”. The barrel is marked with a small “CD” at the breach. The hammer has a small mark that looks like a crown over a “5” and its retaining screw has a mark that looks like a “5” or an “S”. The plate under the hammer is marked with a crown over an “S” over a “21”. On the opposite side of the hammer at the top of the stock there are several marks that I believe are inspectors marks from the top down they are “E” “4” “59” “M” and “41” It then has a circular stamp with “GH” in the middle and “1845” in the outer ring. There are a few other marks that are hard to make out or are symbols. My guess is the caliber is 60-64, but I’m sure how to tell for sure.
I don’t really have a desire to fire this one, but I would like to keep it clean and the fitting bright and shinny. So as the experts what should I use to keep it maintained? What’s my best avenue for tracking down its history and does anyone have a guess as to what this might be worth? Just wondering if I paid too much or too little.
Thank you for any info you can give me.
Jim

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

It is a very nice pistol in excellent condition. I am afraid,though, that it is not British nor has it ever seen service in North America with any of our armed forces. It is French, possibly a Model 1821 as represented by the M1821 marking. It may well be a French naval pistol. My references for French firearms are not good, sorry. It probably came to this country after 1900, possibly as late as the 1950s.

While I agree with you desire to not fire it, it appears to be in very good mechanical condition and could probably be fired as long as you do a good job of cleaning after doing so.

 

[Ray-Vigo]

It looks French to me as well.

It does look like a conversion-- it looks like part of a brass pan is there still.

 

[sckeg]

French? You have my interest. since I know very little, could you please explain a bit more? I was told the crown stamping was a British mark.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

The French features include the brass pan for a flintlock and the band holding the barrel in the stock. British standard military pistols never used either of these features, they are purely French. The crown marking is a feature of several European inspection and proof marks, it is not strictly British. Also, the "M1821" marking on the breachplug tang is distinctly French and designates the model date (not manufacture date) of a French military arm. This pistol was made after 1821, it is possible, but not likely, that the "1845" marking is the date of actual manufacture but not likely, the French were by 1845 making percussion guns. Maybe it is the date of the percussion conversion? Can you show detailed views of all of the markings that you mention?

As far as maintaining it's appearance, like any gun, modern or antique, a light application of any good quality oil is best for the iron parts - the barrel, lock, ramrod, lock bolts and trigger - use "3-in-1" oil or any good gun oil. The stock appears to have it's original varnish finish and should be wiped clean occasionally but nothing else. The brass should be left as it is.

 

[sckeg]

Well I guess that kind of blows the whole story I was told out of the water, but after looking at a few French arms on line I can see what you mean. I tried to get some better pics of the markings, but I'm having trouble getting them to come out clearly. I did edit one to illiterate it a little better. Thank you again for setting me on the right course.

 

[Zonie]

Have you removed the barrel?
There are sometimes proof and other marks stamped on the bottom of barrels.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

BMC, I wish I could offer more help but my knowledge of French firearms of the muzzleloading era is limited. Unfortunately there is not too much published information about them here in the US. I do know for a fact that the roundel ("1845 GH") at the back of the reverse lock panel will "tell the tale" to a well versed French gun person so better photographs of that feature will help a lot if you can post them. Meanwhile, I will try to contact a friend who knows French military arms of the breachloading era, he may be able to help.

 

[sckeg]

50 Cal,
You really have been a great deal of help. Now that I know its French I have learned a lot more in looking at other examples. To me it looks like an update to the French "AN IX" Cavalry Pistol, 1801 the big difference being the attached swivel ram rod. I’m guessing that it was made during the transition from flintlock to percussion and may just be one of those that fell through that crack. (Upgraded tech vs new tech). I will try to get and post a better picture of the mark you asked about. Also I see that you re a fellow Virginian, I live in Chesapeake and belong to NCRR. Are you close by?

Zonie, I’m a novice and not sure how to remove the barrel safely with out doing any damage. Is it worth the possible markings here?
Thank you all
Jim

"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.” ”“ George Washington

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

50 Cal,
You really have been a great deal of help. Now that I know its French I have learned a lot more in looking at other examples. To me it looks like an update to the French "AN IX" Cavalry Pistol, 1801 the big difference being the attached swivel ram rod. I’m guessing that it was made during the transition from flintlock to percussion and may just be one of those that fell through that crack. (Upgraded tech vs new tech). I will try to get and post a better picture of the mark you asked about. Also I see that you re a fellow Virginian, I live in Chesapeake and belong to NCRR. Are you close by?

Zonie, I’m a novice and not sure how to remove the barrel safely with out doing any damage. Is it worth the possible markings here?
Thank you all
Jim

Glad to have been of some help Jim, I live in the Shenandoah Valley so am somewhat to the west of you.

As I said above, the "M 1821" mark on the tang signifies the official model designation of the gun so we do know that it is an accepted, separate model or type. The "1845" date in the roundel likely represents the date when it was converted to percussion but I am not sure of that. The "GH" mark in the roundel is likely the inspector's initial. Again, I wish I could be of more help but unless you can make out any more information in the roundel (where you have shown the "?") then I don't know where else to go with that train of thought. I am assuming the manufacturer's markings that should be on the lockplate have been removed when the percussion conversion was done, the dressing down of the lockplate in the process often removed those marking which were engraved rather than stamped.

 

[Zonie]

50 Cal,


Zonie, I’m a novice and not sure how to remove the barrel safely with out doing any damage. Is it worth the possible markings here?
Thank you all
Jim

Usually the removal of the barrel isn't difficult provided you have screwdrivers that fit the screw slots exactly.

Place the lock at the half-cock position so that the hammer is not resting on the nipple.

You will have to loosen the two lock screws that retain the lock about 2-2 1/2 turns. These screws
pass thru the stock from the left side of the gun.

Lightly tap the heads of these screws and check to see that the lock is moving out of its mortice without splintering any of the wood that surrounds the lockplate.
If splintering is not occuring unscrew the screws a few more turns and repeat tapping on their heads. When the screw heads are again resting on the brass sideplate you can totally remove them.

At this stage, the lock should come out of the stock very easily.

Remove the tang screw at the rear of the barrel.

In the case of your pistol, I can't see what is retaining the brass barrel band and that part must be slid forward off of the wood and barrel.

Most likely it is held in place by a small pin or possibly a screw.

If your unsure about any of this, or if one of the screws doesn't want to turn it would probably be a good idea to leave the gun assembled and keep on wondering what might be marked on the bottom of the barrels breech.

 

[Fabian23]

This is neither French nor British but is in fact a M1820 Dutch naval pistol.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

This is neither French nor British but is in fact a M1820 Dutch naval pistol.

It could very well be, thanks for your post Fabian23. The French influenced arms patterns all over Europe, so Dutch manufacture, or at least use, is a good possibility. But, if it is a Dutch M1820, how do you explain the "M1821" tang stamp?

 

[Fabian23]

The M18XX marking on tang is not necessarily the model number, it can also be the year of original manufacture of the barrel/pistol. I am certain it is Dutch. The hammer, pan conversion, lock markings and nipple screwed directly into the barrel are 100% Dutch. I am a frequent visitor to the Dutch army museum down the road so I see them often enough.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

The M18XX marking on tang is not necessarily the model number, it can also be the year of original manufacture of the barrel/pistol. I am certain it is Dutch. The hammer, pan conversion, lock markings and nipple screwed directly into the barrel are 100% Dutch. I am a frequent visitor to the Dutch army museum down the road so I see them often enough.

Yes, it could be the year of manufacture, however, and this may be where I am having a problem, this style of tang marking (M18XX) is French and denotes French terminology the "Model of 18XX". Is it not possible that this is a French arm purchased by the Dutch government for their use and called by the Dutch the Model of 1820?

The conversion with cone screwed directly into the barrel is a fairly common military conversion and, in U.S. parlance, is called the “Belgian Conversion” since it was copied by the U.S. Arsenals and contractors from the work done in the arms making industry in Belgium.

 

[Fabian23]

Just had a look in my literature, I have an excellent French book dealing with all military French black powder handguns from the 1600s to the final 1874 revolver and more importantly it covers all the copies they inspired worldwide. The pistol pictured is a standard M1820 pistol made in 1821 (crown over S over 21) and later converted to percussion in 1845.

Why it is marked 1821 instead of 1820? Now I have no idea, but it is a M1820.

Another distinctive feature is the rectangular scew head forward of the trigger guard and the little steel tang protruding behind the brass lock counterplate (no idea what it does though).

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Fabian, that's great. Thanks for the information.

:thumbsup:

Can you give me the book's title and author's name? I would like to see if I can find a copy.

 

[Fabian23]

http://www.lehussard.eu/mailing/701053.php

ARMES DE POING MILITAIRES FRANCAISES
Du XVIe au XIXe siècle et leurs influences à l'étranger

De Robert E. BROOKER - Adaptation Patrick RESEK
Préfacé par Jean BOUDRIOT

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Thanks! I haven't been to "Le Hussard" in years.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Forgot to add, I hope that BMC, the original poster, gets to see your information, I'm sure he'll find it useful.