12L14 Steel for barrels???

[Archie]

The real reason these inlines were developed (IMNSHO)was to cure the problems created by pyrodex. :td: And the guys who are using inlines with 150gr of propellant, generally speaking, want .30-30 winchester performance without the "hassle" of a caplock or (God forbid) a flintlock. Part of the problem is some of these states have missed or forgotten the point of having a muzzleloader hunting season.

At least I can still hunt with some relief from the drunk idiots with their remchester jamm-o-matics and their blaze orange cowboy hats.

 

[Little Wattsy]

The real reason these inlines were developed (IMNSHO)was to cure the problems created by pyrodex. :td: And the guys who are using inlines with 150gr of propellant, generally speaking, want .30-30 winchester performance without the "hassle" of a caplock or (God forbid) a flintlock. Part of the problem is some of these states have missed or forgotten the point of having a muzzleloader hunting season.

At least I can still hunt with some relief from the drunk idiots with their remchester jamm-o-matics and their blaze orange cowboy hats.

I disagree: The pendalum is always swinging; the nature of man is to "make it better" from the 1st rock to a club, to a spear, to bows and arrows, to black powder, to centerfires, to gatling guns, etc... And THEN the pendelum swings the other way "back to the basics" and we saw a new bow season with recurvs, then compounds, then sights, then releases, then mechanical broadheads, then bigger cams, etc... Making "IT" better :wink:
So to it was muzzleloaders and crossbows. All that said I bet we see another "back to the basics" swing if for no othe reason then the manufacturers will need new product lines to keep the profitably in business.... :grin:

 

i really wasn't trying to make this a discussion about inlines vs traditional, i only used it as a point of reference.

my point being, perhaps 12L14 is just fine with safe and sane loads and practices?

and i would still like to have someone explain to me the need for 150gr of any sort of powder? especially given that the 45/70 with its 70 gr of powder seems to have been accurate and more than adequate to take down any animal in the lower 48?

this question holds whether wheellock, flint or percussion rifles.

are these heavy charges needed to drive a patched ball through a deer? maybe that is the issue? i don't know, but would like to see what others thoughts are.

bob g

 

[jdkerstetter]

...are these heavy charges needed to drive a patched ball through a deer?....i don't know, but would like to see what others thoughts are.

No offence, but perhaps you should start another thread, in a different subject area, asking just that.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[M. De Land]

I disagree with you, 4140 stress relieved gun barrel quality steel does have more safety margin from pressure spikes caused by accidents than does cold drawn 12L14. Look up the tensile, Charpy,Izod,elongation and ductility numbers.
These are irrefutable reasons it's not also used for center fire gun barrel steel.
If it's put to rest in your mind than ignore the thread don't try to make those of us who still want to discuss it stop. I or we will when were ready to.
GM doesn't use it in their muzzle loading barrels I notice. And I have to wonder why Douglas quick making muzzle loading barrels when they apparently did use it. MD

 

[Robby]

i really wasn't trying to make this a discussion about inlines vs traditional, i only used it as a point of reference.

my point being, perhaps 12L14 is just fine with safe and sane loads and practices?

and i would still like to have someone explain to me the need for 150gr of any sort of powder? especially given that the 45/70 with its 70 gr of powder seems to have been accurate and more than adequate to take down any animal in the lower 48?

this question holds whether wheellock, flint or percussion rifles.

are these heavy charges needed to drive a patched ball through a deer? maybe that is the issue? i don't know, but would like to see what others thoughts are.

bob g

Bob, I can't speak for everyone that has worked up a fairly heavy load, but I do know of a few fellows and myself that have worked up what might be considered a pretty stiff load for deer. The reason wasn't hit, drop, kill and gut the deer all with one shot, it was to take some of the guess work out of shots at a longer distance. In other words, to make it shoot flatter. Never got up to 150gr's, but did work up a fairly flat shooting load for a .69 cal rifle that was 140gr.. Barrel material is 12L14.
Robby

 

[jdkerstetter]

I disagree with you, 4140 stress relieved gun barrel quality steel does have more safety margin from pressure spikes caused by accidents than does cold drawn 12L14. Look up the tensile, Charpy,Izod,elongation and ductility numbers.
These are irrefutable reasons it's not also used for center fire gun barrel steel.

Ah yes, those inconvenient numbers. We've already been down this road. Irrefutable? How 'bout 10's of thousands of ML barrels made of 12L14 and nobody can come up with PROOF that the metal is not suitable.

If it's put to rest in your mind than ignore the thread don't try to make those of us who still want to discuss it stop. I or we will when were ready to.

I wouldn't dream of making you stop. Besides, only a moderator can do that,.....

GM doesn't use it in their muzzle loading barrels I notice. And I have to wonder why Douglas quick making muzzle loading barrels when they apparently did use it.

What Green Mountain chooses to use doesn't really make or break a discussion on whether or not 12L14 is safe.

With Douglas, you don't have to "wonder", the information is out there if you look for it. It wasn't the material they were using, but the way it was prepared that imparted the "flaws". No current manufacturer of ML barrels makes them in the way Douglas did for this reason.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Flintfan69]

GM doesn't use it in their muzzle loading barrels I notice. And I have to wonder why Douglas quick making muzzle loading barrels when they apparently did use it. MD

There was more to the Douglas problem than just the material the barrels were made from. They had barrel stock that was made especially for them that was extruded octagon. The problem with their burst barrels was most likely caused the extruding process that introduced flaws into the barrel stock. I've seen failed Douglas barrels, and they were cleanly split from the breech forward. They didn't burst, or explode into shrapnel like others have theorized 12L14 should. It is exactly how you would expect them to fail if there were flaws introduced into the steel during the extruding process, and run the length of the barrel. Would they have failed if they were made from 4140 using the same process? Probably.

If you want to actually have a legitimate discussion about the safety of 12L14 for gun barrels you need to know of how many of the 10's of thousands of Getz, Colerain, Rice...etc. that have been made have failed due to the type of steel they are made from. I don't know of any, does anyone else know?

They are made from round bar that has been milled or planed octagon, not extruded. You can't compare Douglas barrels to any of the recently made ones from other manufacturers.

 

[rich pierce]

Well said.

I doubt anyone disputes that 4140 properly treated is less likely to blow with smokeless powder pressure ranges and spikes than 12L14.

The question is whether 12L14 barrels currently made are "safe" with black powder. It appears that they are, under ordinary operating circumstances. Can they fail? Yes, with an obstruction, they can fail sure as a centerfire can and will fail. We've all seen the banana peel 4140 barrel from some guy leaving a bore sighter in his gun. Is there likely more margin for error if a given black powder barrel is made of 4140 than 12L14? Almost certainly.

Is there really anything more or new to say on the topic? I'm certainly just re-hashing. :redface:

 

[M. De Land]

Well, that was the point Kelley was making in his article that cold working was causing the trouble not the alloy it self.
4140 guns barrel steel is hot rolled not cold rolled.
If 12L14 were hot rolled it probably would be more ductile and better suited for barrel steel strength but less machinable. It generally is not according to Kelly.
If all these other well know barrel makers are using cold rolled 12L14 than it doesn't really matter if they extrude again or not.
I don't know if the ductility can be restored to cold drawn 12L14 by annealing .I do know that annealing is a necessary process in button rifling 4140 but not necessary for cut, scrape or broach rifling.
If these smaller barrel makers are using cold drawn 12L14, and probably not annealing, then cut or broach rifling it, the cold drawn characteristics are still present and the safety margin I was speaking about not present.MD

 

[LaBonte]

Your mixing two different processes - cold rolled and cold drawn are not the same thing - with cold rolled the entire sheet is run through the press (with hot rolled the sheet is heated before rolling), cold drawn means the blank is drawn through a die to force it into shape much like making wire.
And yes heat treatment (not necessarily annealing, simple naturalizing - heat and let cool at room temps) should solve the stress problems in 12L14 the same way it does in 4140 or most other steels.
As for stresses every barrel made will have them whenever a maker works on them - just cutting in dove tails for instance will create stress points.

FWIW - I grew up in a machine/gun shop and have been a knife maker for over 40 years so I have more than a passing familiarity with steel and it's properties.

as for metallurgists - like any other profession there are specialty areas plus it can depend on how soon out of school one is.

A good friend who is a knife maker recently had a visit from two professional metallurgists - one was just out of school the other had 25 years experience. When Ed showed some of his methods the younger began ranting about how that couldn't work because that's what the books said. The one with 25 years experience just shook his head and grinned - "Well then I reckon Ed just performed the impossible." or words to that effect.

BTW - Mr. Kelly and I have communicated a few times and while I respect his opinions on the matter of proper ML gun barrel steel but the simple fact is that thousands of 12L14 barrels haven't been blown to smithereens, despite the "science" that says it isn't the proper steel to use.
Just because an "expert" says it doesn't mean it's gospel, especially when there's a multitude of facts that show different - this fact being that few (if any?) 12L14 barrels have burst on their own and not due to operator error - which is the cause of most barrel failures no matter what steel it is. IIRC in one listing of blown gun barrels that Mr. Kelly sent me (and I've since misplaced) the steels that were in the several blown barrels did not include 12L14 - they were (again IIRC) all 1137 (typically used shotgun barrels), 8620, and 4140.

 

to everyone concerned:

these so called engineers, and yes some are very good, but i am reminded of the old saying "what do you call a doctor that graduated at the bottom of his class?" answer "Doctor"

all of these steel charts are based on engineering practice of one sort or another.. so we need be mindful of what engineering really is

engineering at is essence is astute observation, followed by an effort to explain what was observed by some mathematical equation... all this is built up on and with empirical evidence... so...

12L14 empirically appears to be adequate and safe for black powder gun barrels, if the rifling is done properly and maybe followed by an anneal treatment? i say this because of the countless thousands of these barrels having been manufactured and in use by all sorts of folks for a number of years, likely with some abusive practices either by design or accident.

so i am left to conclude that the engineering formula's which appear to be sound for other gun barrels clearly do not explain the mounting empirical evidence that supports its use for 12L14 for barrels used with black powder.

because the market is so small it is really doubtful that there has been serious testing done by an independent lab that would tell us what the margin of safety really is, it might well be more than sufficient, as i would suspect.

it hard for me to believe that a 12L14 barrel that is rifled properly, annealed or normalized would exhibit a failure rate anywhere near those barrels made by the old guys back in the day where they mined the ore, refined and made steel and hammered a barrel over a mandrel (what? the original DOM?).

me? i would much rather have a barrel that bulged and split, than one that held its shape and failed suddenly in a catastrophic manner like a grenade. no way i want shards of glass like steel bit flying about...

how many barrels do we have pictures of failures that were of approved ordnance steels? seems like i can find several blown up barrels on smokeless powder rifles but no one has produced pictures of similar failures with black powder barrels made of any material that was not directly related to some sort of foolishness in loading incorrectly?

if i am wrong please school me! i want to learn damn it!



thanks
bob g

 

[M. De Land]

Good discussion guys, I appreciate counter thought and differing views.I'm going to keep shooting my Douglas barreled .54.

 

[jdkerstetter]

What's funny M.D. is that after all the concern you have expressed about the safety of 12L14 being used as a steel to manufacture barrels you choose to keep using a Douglas. Kind of ironic.

Douglas barrels were manufactured by the least safe method and the only ones I've seen documentation of failure on.

That being said, there are thousands of Douglas barrels in service and the documented blow ups were only in the 7/8" .45 caliber barrels...I.I.R.C.....so, depending on your barrels diameter to caliber ratio, you're probably OK.

Now, I have two Douglas barrels that are 7/8" .40 calibers, breeched correctly and have no fear shooting them. But we all make choices.

Glad you've seen the logic in all the evidence provided here. Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Rifleman1776]

have been a knife maker for over 40 years so I have more than a passing familiarity with steel and it's properties.

That is an interesting comment.
First, I'll qualify: my knowledge of mettalurgy is zip. I depend for others to advise on that subject. Or, I'll just buy a well reputed product on faith and go with it.
Anyhow, as many know, Arkansas may be the custom knife making capitol of America. We have many master knife makers here. There are two schools of thinking with regards to making a good blade. One is forging by layering the steel. The other is stock removal.
I have attended demonstrations and talked with master knife makers from both schools. As much as I resepct them I am still bumfuzzled.
e.g. the forger says "the blade must be layered and forged to properly align the grain/molecules/etc. for a good blade."
the stock removal guy says: "don't forge and layer. The steel is great the way it came, don't mess with success."
BTW, both seem to favor the steel used to make leaf springs for large trucks.
So, this expert says this and that expert says that. Who is right/wrong. Who's on first?

 

[rich pierce]

Rifleman, that's called "marketing". "My way is superior".

 

[jerrywh]

How does this relate to 12L14 gun barrel steel?

 

JD
i think you make a valid point, that being the bore to OD ratio or the effective wall thickness.

given a sufficiently large wall thickness it would seem implausible that a failure would be eminent.

iirc the robbling cable company built the brooklin bridge, and having done the engineering spec'd the wire the cables were to be made of.. and when they took delivery the wire was found to be inferior to the design spec's

their fix was to add more strands, iirc they just added 30% or maybe 50% more stands to assure a margin of safety using the inferior wire.

so lesson learned?

even a material that is widely reported as unsuitable for a gun barrel "can" successfully be used "if" additional sidewall thickness is assured.

manure the chinese built canon (as we all know), out of wood, wrapped with ropes and while the likely had a certain amount of failures, nevertheless were successful in firing stone
balls.

it seems likely the process was iterative, when the first log blew up, the likely went thicker, when it too failed maybe they used a tougher wood, when it failed with too much regularity, they wound it with rope, wash/rinse/repeat until such time that they felt the success rate vs failure rate was acceptable.

so in conclusion i think you are spot on, 12L14 is likely just fine, unless one is to spec a barrel made that is 58cal out of a 13/16" octagon
and loaded with magnum loads of FFFg... a barrel such as described is likely to blow up no matter what it is made of. add button rifling and maybe it is even worse?

seems more than reasonable to expect no issues with a barrel of a larger bore to diameter ratio, with cut rifling, and using sensible loading practices?

does anyone have any stats as to failure rates in muzzle loaders? i am thinking it has to be less than 1 in a 1000 barrels of any type, of those failures it seems likely 9 or 10 are linked to blockages, double charges, or some other manure... so what does this tell us? 1 out of 10,000 barrels might fail due to a flaw in materials? maybe?

just a guess, and i would sure be interested in some stats on this

bob g

 

[M. De Land]

If you go back I have consistently said I would keep shooting my Douglas barrel gun but that I would back down from my maximum charges.
The discussion has caused me to provide a safety margin that is not inherent in the steel.
I will not buy another barrel from any maker who uses 12L14 if I can get 4130 or 40 though.
I'm still looking for my GM brochure but as far as I remember they don't use it.MD

 

[Rifleman1776]

How does this relate to 12L14 gun barrel steel?

Jerry, I had hoped my reference to the Laurel and Hardy comedy routine "Who's on first?" would answer that.
We have a lot of learned and some not so learned opinions on the 12L14 issue. Is is good/bad or from Mars will never be answered.
Remember, the bumble bee cannot fly either.