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Ottoman Guns

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This is probably the answer.

In Europe, wheellock development was heavily driven by cavalry needs. The wheellock pistol and carbine came into widespread use during the evolution of European cavalry in the 16th century, where the struggled to find methods of staying cost effective and contending with pike and shot infantry. Ottoman cavalry didn’t have the same problems and were able to stay highly competitive against western cavalry in the 17th century, even without the widespread use of guns. I’m less familiar with when the ottomans first adopted the Miquelet but it seems it was before their main European rivals adopted firelocks in large numbers. By the siege of Vienna at the end of the 17th century, the Austrians were still using matchlocks in massive numbers.
We haven't been able to pinpoint a time frame when the Ottomans began adopting the use of the miquelet lock. But we believe it was early on. At least with the Ottoman/Turks. But we simply don't have the volume of records for the Ottomans like we do for Europe. So much of it is speculation and reasonable guess work.

Rick
 
barrel. Even ones for hunting/sporting use. For some reason they didn't find a rifled barrel any advantage. Curious.
It might be that most bigger game was pinned up by hunting dogs against something or just worn down from the chase. No need for a rifled barrel, and they were too heavy to haul around for miles. Now, hunting your enemies was a different story. You wanted to stay FAR away but get a good shot . That needs a rifled barrel if you could afford one.
 
Read a story that was done on a Mongolian hunter back in the 1960’s. He had an old matchlock, he even admitted he wasn’t a good shot, but his dogs just kept whatever he was hunting from moving much and he just shot it up close. Much less than 25 yards the author said.
 
Tob,
On the previous page you mentioned the wheellock and cavalry use.
Yes, indeed heavily used by cavalry, but I would suggest that the wheellock was first and foremost a hunting arm for those who could afford it.
I believe it was an offshoot, or after thought, to get it into the hands of the cavalry, and if we look closely at cavalry at this time, they were more the wealthy or titled who could afford a place in such, so quite often the same men who had them as sporting guns.

Not trying to be nit picking, but this is how I see it. Sporting firstly, then military.
 
However, I don't believe that beyond their sheer volume of force and the artistic ability to decorate and manufacture basic locks/firearms in massive quantities, the typical Ottoman armorer was equipped, nor had the top down appetite or talent technologically as the Dutch Germanic, Italian, French or the Spanish armorer. They had their own basic tools and equipment needs and human military numbers to limp through the very early 20th century...

Interestingly, I have just been reading an article concerning the hiring of European armory masters in the Ottoman empire. In as early as the 1st quarter of the 16th century, they had employed at least 5 Spanish Jews to help with the development and lightening of their own muskets. There was of course also forced labor of captured armorers. And in the 18th century, most European experts employed were often officers who were seeking asylum because they disagreed with their homeland or their leaders. Also, some countries had control over how the Ottoman state and army were organized & they could collect information and handle relationships between countries. Namely, France is mentioned. According to the article, "The factor that made the Ottomans superior to their opponents in terms of the perfection and relative sufficiency of the tools they used in the fifteenth, sixteenth and seventeenth centuries was the dominance of It is the ability to properly process quality materials obtained from the rich underground and aboveground resources in the soil, by combining the experience of professionals consisting of different elements of these soils and the technical knowledge of foreign experts."

All that being said, I agree with Sam's conclusion of wheellocks being more trouble than they are worth. It is suggested that the Ottomans had adopted the Miquelet very early, so there was no need for the wheellock. The few examples I have found:
Using a lock that was most likely captured during the war with Austria, it is marked Kilian Zelner who made guns from 1673-1693
kilianzelner.jpg


And this clearly European made, Ottoman decorated.
1650.jpg

188043-Wheellock-musket-1631-1670-.jpg


I dont know much about Wheellocks but this follows the lines of the early Italian arms that would be the basis for the Čibuklija/Dzeferdar

EDIT: purely anecdotal, but I came across this illustration from 1575 showing an Ottoman archer & janissary with a wheellock
Deheere-111-Janissary.jpg
 
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On occasion, we do see an Ottoman style gun with a Western style stock. Always makes me wonder what the ethnic background of the customer/buyer was... ...Possibly the gun was made for a customer with an Ottoman background living in Europe (?)
Purely conjecture, but I believe there are a couple possibilities even a mix of them. It could have to do with location within the empire, some areas were much closer to the Western world and further from the Balkan/Turkish style influence. Romania, Moldova, Hungary, Northern Bosnia, etc would all have been candidates. There is also the possibility the customer was a European, much more familiar with the Western styled stock who wanted something from a local smith. And then there is the idea that the customer was an Ottoman subject who wanted to appear more wealthy/worldly. I dont have much info on prices throughout the empire, however in the Caucasus it is known that locally made guns were as a rule, the cheapest option, with Turkish guns being the next step up and European arms being the most expensive. Another idea is that due to the military reforms in the 1820's, the Western style stock would become more familiar with the general public and someone wanting a "military" styled gun would have it made in this fashion.
crimeaturks.jpg
 
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While gun "decoration" is nothing new, it has always fascinated me as to "why" gun builders during the Ottoman Empire were so intent on decorating their guns to such a degree ? Would be worthy of a separate Thread.

Rick
Robert Elgood has a good explanation for this. The first part is obvious; martial figures such as soldiers or bandits need to be on the move, and thus cannot have fixed symbols of wealth like houses or plantations. Therefore, for such people, the only way to show off your wealth is to carry it, so they showed it off by simply blinging out what they already had to have on themselves. Also, apparently, in a cinch, they could sell/barter parts of their decorations, and not have to carry extra coin with them.
A wheellock isn't something you could make in your back yard, so think they were wise enough to not try.
I have heard that clock makers made at least some wheellock mechanisms, and probably there was a shortage of Ottoman clock makers.

Pure conjecture again on my part!
I think this was part of the case as well. Ottomans of the classical era were fascinated by clocks and seemingly never tried to replicate them on a competitive scale - I guess the domestic market didn't have much use for it, considering that the call for prayer also acted as a reminder of time. The Europeans often brought clocks and pocketwatches as diplomatic gifts, some specifically made for the Ottomans (who back then used different units of time). I also recall reading about Ottomans asking foreigners to repair their broken clocks. Diplomats probably brought along watchmakers in their retinue just for this purpose.
I've also wondered if during the 19th Century many Ottomans conscripted in the Military we required to supply their own guns ?

Rick
I'm doubtful of that. Part of the Ottoman military modernization process was a constant attempt at standardization. Provincial volunteers no doubt provided their own guns (Afshars, Albanians, Circassians and Kurds come to mind, for one), but having your regular conscript also supply his own firearm creates not only logistical issues but also a problem concerning the fact that his higher-ups could no longer as easily hold him responsible for taking care of his firearm and such.

All that being said, I agree with Sam's conclusion of wheellocks being more trouble than they are worth. It is suggested that the Ottomans had adopted the Miquelet very early, so there was no need for the wheellock. The few examples I have found:
Someone in the thread mentioned that the wheellock was primarily a cavalry affair and I would not disagree. Adding onto this statement, I should mention that Ottoman cavalrymen adopted firearms at a later date than their European contemporaries (early accounts suggesting that the first cavalry recipients of firearms found them finicky and messy and asked to go back to bows). By the time they warmed up to its use, the miquelet was not an uncommon sight, and we also know that they used captured wheellocks, so it seems there was no "need" at any time for the Ottomans to produce their own wheellocks.
 
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Robert Elgood has a good explanation for this. The first part is obvious; martial figures such as soldiers or bandits need to be on the move, and thus cannot have fixed symbols of wealth like houses or plantations. Therefore, for such people, the only way to show off your wealth is to carry it, so they showed it off by simply blinging out what they already had to have on themselves. Also, apparently, in a cinch, they could sell/barter parts of their decorations, and not have to carry extra coin with them.
I agree but to address the decoration of "military" arms as well, it is mentioned in Luigi Marsigli's "L'Etat Militaire de l'empire Ottoman" (The military state of the Ottoman Empire) That the Janissaries loved to decorate their arms as they thought it brought honor to them, particularly the Egyptians. That was published in 1732. He had spent time in the 1670's traveling the Ottoman Empire and fought and was captured from 1682-1684, so his account is considered accurate.
Screenshot 2024-01-08 121841.png

Here are illustrations from the book showing the kinds of arms he encountered as well as how they cut lead, though I think the matchlock is off.
Screenshot 2024-01-08 124724.png

Just for fun, here is a pistol similar to the illustration and likely something Marsigli would have encountered
de33deb9996a4556fb2d31a3e714395f.jpg

There are also these illustrations from the 1657 Rålamb book of costumes
Janissary with a plain gun
Ralamb_Janissary_1.jpg

Armorer with decorated gun
Cebeci.jpg


Egyptian Janissary with a plain gun, besides the ivory butt
Ralamb-69.jpg

Irregular with decorated gun
Ralamb_Levente.jpg


Here is what I suspect is the standard gun that was issued before any decoration. Interestingly, this particular gun has provenance being from the 16th century & having belonged to Bogdan Yakoblevich Belsky, a bodyguard to the Russian Czar and a Boyar, close friend of Ivan the Terrible. He may have received it during one of the battles with Crimean Khanate.
168535-Hclikqk9oKr4t-2bCyTOKNal-p9JTpnHcbB2NF0hNUMi2TP1UlhFcKJpD2ESxSH9.jpg

Here is a slightly decorated 17th century example
168536-Matchlock-Musket-1600-1699-.jpg
 
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Barud and Cyten: Thank you both for your comments. Most helpful and interesting. Somehow I didn't remember Elgood's comments. I do have all of his books. Thanks for the reminder. Your comments make perfect sense.

Rick
 
I agree but to address the decoration of "military" arms as well, it is mentioned in Luigi Marsigli's "L'Etat Militaire de l'empire Ottoman" (The military state of the Ottoman Empire) That the Janissaries loved to decorate their arms as they thought it brought honor to them, particularly the Egyptians. That was published in 1732. He had spent time in the 1670's traveling the Ottoman Empire and fought and was captured from 1682-1684, so his account is considered accurate.
One should not forget that the Janissaries of that era could hardly be called "military" in the modern sense of the word, or even the contemporary European sense of the word. They had nothing akin to drill, uniform, or standard armament (most of their arms being privately owned). It was more of a bloated social class with martial connotations, not unlike the Samurai of the Edo period. You could simply bribe your way into being a Janissary and not have to go into combat and only take the ulufe salary every three months.
 
I found some information regarding the prices these guns would have cost.

In 1859 it was noted in the French Geographical Society that in Sliven, Bulgaria that a very finely decorated Boyliya cost 15 Napoleans. This would be equivalent to just about $60 at the time. Here is an example of what one could probably expect for this price. $2217 in 2024
415811118_2959672054169165_2070920168703058912_n.jpg

415777115_2959672287502475_4820874212526631425_n.jpg



Nurkov writes in "От Лъка До Кримката" (From Bow to Flint) Guns made in Tetovo (Macedonia) sold for between 4-50 gold coins. Whether they mean Napoleans or Kurush makes a very small difference but that averages out to $17-$210. He also writes that a merchant called Hadji Peter, sent at least 10 loads of guns from Tetovo to Egypt because they were sold for their weight in gold. Here is an example of a Macedonian gun that could have come from Tetovo. $628-$7761 in 2024
makedonka.jpg

makedonka3.jpg

And a painting from Egypt with a "Makedonka" possibly from on of Hadji Peter's Tetovo shipments.
1br9qfwksxqfxp51468.jpg


According to a mid to late 18th century document from the French Consul in the Caucasus, Peysonel, a decorated gun made in Istanbul cost 6 Tumani which was equal to $150. Here is a Shishane that may fit that bill and is dated to 1797-1798. $3740 in 2024

1797-8.jpg


In the 1787 "Tableau du commerce de la Grece" regarding the shipment and sales of arms from Brescia (Italy) to Greece, it is written that the usual price for a "firelock" is about 7 piastres which is a little over $6.50 and a pair of pistols is around 11 about $10. It is written that guns adorned with gold and silver as well as engraving near the breech are the most requested. They may have looked something like this. $214-$330 in 2024
188681-17-VII-01-c-breech-R-small-.jpg

1255-134.jpg


C.R. Cockerell writes in his journal that in 1810 Turkish subjects in preparation for war with Russia could go to the government and receive 200-300 piastres in order to equip themselves with "a brace of pistols, a broadsword, & a musket, more often chosen for its silver inlay than its efficiency." This equals out to about $47-$71. Maybe that pay would cover all this? $1172-$1770 in 2024
365191902_7357089770984572_4262502151476043869_n.jpg
 
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I found some information regarding the prices these guns would have cost.

In 1859 it was noted in the French Geographical Society that in Sliven, Bulgaria that a very finely decorated Boyliya cost 15 Napoleans. This would be equivalent to just about $60 at the time. Here is an example of what one could probably expect for this price. $2217 in 2024
View attachment 286288
View attachment 286302


Nurkov writes in "От Лъка До Кримката" (From Bow to Flint) Guns made in Tetovo (Macedonia) sold for between 4-50 gold coins. Whether they mean Napoleans or Kurush makes a very small difference but that averages out to $17-$210. He also writes that a merchant called Hadji Peter, sent at least 10 loads of guns from Tetovo to Egypt because they were sold for their weight in gold. Here is an example of a Macedonian gun that could have come from Tetovo. $628-$7761 in 2024
View attachment 286299
View attachment 286301
And a painting from Egypt with a "Makedonka" possibly from on of Hadji Peter's Tetovo shipments.
View attachment 286320

According to a mid to late 18th century document from the French Consul in the Caucasus, Peysonel, a decorated gun made in Istanbul cost 6 Tumani which was equal to $150. Here is a Shishane that may fit that bill and is dated to 1797-1798. $3740 in 2024

View attachment 286306

C.R. Cockerell writes in his journal that in 1810 Turkish subjects in preparation for war with Russia could go to the government and receive 200-300 piastres in order to equip themselves with "a brace of pistols, a broadsword, & a musket, more often chosen for its silver inlay than its efficiency." This equals out to about $47-$71. Maybe that pay would cover all this? $1172-$1770 in 2024
View attachment 286319
I wonder what the average monthly wage (or equivalent compensation) was for someone in these regions? Those prices are absurdly low, given how much labor was involved.
 
I wonder what the average monthly wage (or equivalent compensation) was for someone in these regions? Those prices are absurdly low, given how much labor was involved.
Oh boy, I have gone into things I never thought I'd research today, ancient currencies/their gold or silver content, Ottoman wages, math etc.

So, according to "Real Wages and Standards of Living in the Ottoman Empire, 1489-1914" by Süleyman Özmucur & Şevket Pamuk, the average daily wage from 1790-1859 for an unskilled worker was 5.6g of silver, equaling $0.23 & a skilled worker was 10.3g of silver, which was $0.42
There is no info on how many hours were in a workday or how many days of work in month. So, if we go by modern standards, you're looking at roughly $5-$9 a month. If you're a skilled worker, a low end gun made in Tetovo is costing you 2 months salary.

Maybe @Barud has more info?

btw, the way I am estimating the value in period dollars is by taking the silver or gold content of US dollar coins from the nearest equivalent year and comparing with the content of the currency in question, and using the CPI inflation calculator to see todays prices. This is outside my wheelhouse, so if anyone is more well versed in this sort of thing, please speak up!
 
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Oh boy, I have gone into things I never thought I'd research today, ancient currencies/their gold or silver content, Ottoman wages, math etc.

So, according to "Real Wages and Standards of Living in the Ottoman Empire, 1489-1914" by Süleyman Özmucur & Şevket Pamuk, the average daily wage from 1790-1859 for an unskilled worker was 5.6g of silver, equaling $0.23 & a skilled worker was 10.3g of silver, which was $0.42
There is no info on how many hours were in a workday or how many days of work in month. So, if we go by modern standards, you're looking at roughly $5-$9 a month. If you're a skilled worker, a low end gun made in Tetovo is costing you 2 months salary.

Maybe @Barud has more info?

btw, the way I am estimating the value in period dollars is by taking the silver or gold content of US dollar coins from the nearest equivalent year and comparing with the content of the currency in question, and using the CPI inflation calculator to see todays prices. This is outside my wheelhouse, so if anyone is more well versed in this sort of thing, please speak up!
Excellent research! That adds some great context and makes a lot more sense for the prices.
 

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