Ottoman Guns

Barud said:

Bit of a digression from the thread topic, but to my understanding, even back then the matter was a point of contention. More pious movements were against essentially all drawing in general, but those seem to have been seen as outliers and not very well regarded in classical Ottoman society. Still, you can find some miniature manuscripts where someone's scribbled out all the faces with a pen, or just smeared off the ink by spitting on the figures and then rubbing them away.

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Fascinating! thank you for the additional information!

This may be of interest if you have not seen it as yet:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20792

XVIIc Wheelock said:

This may be of interest if you have not seen it as yet:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20792

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Simply amazing. To think it was done with the tools of those times.

XVIIc Wheelock said:

This may be of interest if you have not seen it as yet:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20792

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Wow. Interesting how many of those matchlocks had front and rear sights, some even "peep sights."

Peep or tunnel covered sights are seen early 1500's in Europe, Hector.
The tunnel often covers a V sight.

Hi Sir Ricky....I changed my mind on selling the lock. I did put it on a stock of my own design and it sparked well and shot a great group.
then stopped sparking. So I removed the barrel and made another rifle. Simply my own design. So I finally got the lock to spark again and
now I need a barrel..... 45 cal. 7/8ths flats.....So my new job is trying to contact makers and place an order.

Wulf1928: You might try Rice Barrel Company. Very high quality specializing in M/L barrels. I speak from experience.
Larry

A Boyliya with it’s original sling

cyten said:

A Boyliya with it’s original sling

View attachment 273452View attachment 273453View attachment 273454

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Hi Cyten

That Boyliya is a beauty. Yes, that original sling would be considered a real rarity. That example with the sling and silver work would likely fetch $$$ at a U.S. auction. Thanks for posting.

Rick

Funny. The sling looks like it's seen more use than the gun itself. LOL

Rick

Came across an auction with Portuguese gun (the lock is, at least) with an Ottoman barrel


very interesting to see it stocked in a military carbine pattern rather than a fancy sporting gun

I wanted to point out an interesting pattern I've seen a few times over the years. There is this diamond/checkerboard pattern inlaid stocks of which I'm unsure of the origin. They look similar to the Dzeferdars of Bosnia & Montenegro but I have only seen them with bone/ivory and not mother of pearl.

Here is an example that sold at auction in the last couple years in Germany.

This is on display in the Hisart museum in Istanbul


And this was sold back in 2012 in the USA. It has a typical "Gaborovo" lock from Bulgaria, perhaps a hint at it's origins?


I guess I have seen maybe one or two other examples over the years

edit: The more I look at it now, I believe this last example is the one that is on display in the Hisart museum!

cyten said:

I wanted to point out an interesting pattern I've seen a few times over the years. There is this diamond/checkerboard pattern inlaid stocks of which I'm unsure of the origin. They look similar to the Dzeferdars of Bosnia & Montenegro but I have only seen them with bone/ivory and not mother of pearl.

Here is an example that sold at auction in the last couple years in Germany.
View attachment 281554View attachment 281555
This is on display in the Hisart museum in Istanbul
View attachment 281556

And this was sold back in 2012 in the USA. It has a typical "Gaborovo" lock from Bulgaria, perhaps a hint at it's origins?
View attachment 281557

I guess I have seen maybe one or two examples over the years

edit: The more I look at it now, I believe this last example is the one that is on display in the Hisart museum!

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It looks the same to me! Cool that a gun got to return home.

Found another example with the seemingly popular starburst pattern again

Hi Cyten

The first 2 photos on your Post #572 shows a stock shape typical of the Ottoman/Turkish style. But the middle gun in the display and the gun from Collectable Firearms (they do indeed look like the same gun) shows a butt stock style similar to the Bulgarian/Boyliya guns,
Interesting that the diamond pattern runs the entire length of the stock uninterrupted. Makes one think the 2/3 guns came from the same shop/builder. (?) While many of the very decorated guns were likely commissioned to a builder from a specific customer, it's just as easy to believe that a builder with no current customer would build a gun in a style that suites him at the moment and simply offer it for sale.

Rick

rickystl said:

Hi Cyten

The first 2 photos on your Post #572 shows a stock shape typical of the Ottoman/Turkish style. But the middle gun in the display and the gun from Collectable Firearms (they do indeed look like the same gun) shows a butt stock style similar to the Bulgarian/Boyliya guns,
Interesting that the diamond pattern runs the entire length of the stock uninterrupted. Makes one think the 2/3 guns came from the same shop/builder. (?) While many of the very decorated guns were likely commissioned to a builder from a specific customer, it's just as easy to believe that a builder with no current customer would build a gun in a style that suites him at the moment and simply offer it for sale.

Rick

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Rick, it seems you are correct! I hadn't noticed but went back and found more photos of the rifle and here is the butt.


I've also got to wonder if it was intended for the same or similar market for the Dzeferdar or the Boyliya? Dzeferdar are of course usually fully covered and the Boyliya tend to have a lot of diamond patterns.





Then there is this example which follows Western form

It all sort of makes me think of the Croatian flag, perhaps they were the market? Being so close to Montenegro and the production of the Dzeferdar... but i think that's a stretch.

On occasion, we do see an Ottoman style gun with a Western style stock. Always makes me wonder what the ethnic background of the customer/buyer was. Note also the English style flintlock. It has a roller on the frizzen spring. This would date the gun to the early 19th Century. But the barrel appears to be Ottoman. Possibly the gun was made for a customer with an Ottoman background living in Europe (?)
And the lack of a trigger guard tells me the same. This is a really interesting gun that raises a bunch of questions we will likely never know.

While gun "decoration" is nothing new, it has always fascinated me as to "why" gun builders during the Ottoman Empire were so intent on decorating their guns to such a degree ? Would be worthy of a separate Thread.

Rick

rickystl said:

While gun "decoration" is nothing new, it has always fascinated me as to "why" gun builders during the Ottoman Empire were so intent on decorating their guns to such a degree ? Would be worthy of a separate Thread.

Rick

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YES! I’ve been wondering this for a while! I don’t think I’ve seen a “po’boy” or “munitions grade” version of an ottoman gun.

I think it was a display of wealth and status.

TobJohn said:

YES! I’ve been wondering this for a while! I don’t think I’ve seen a “po’boy” or “munitions grade” version of an ottoman gun.

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Then, as now, the best quality guns tended to get the best care. And often show signs of light usage. I have seen examples of what we would call munition-grade Ottoman style shoulder guns. In fact, I own a couple. But they usually turn up in poor condition from constant field use. Many in this category probably disintegrated over the many years of hard use.

Rick