Screw Driver

What should a historically correct screw driver look like?

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/18th-and-19th-century-turnscrews-screwdrivers.107577/

This old thread has a lot of links to illustrations. Check it out.

shane a gress said:

What should a historically correct screw driver look like?

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In addition to those links that still work in my older thread Cruzatte mentioned, the following link shows the types of Blacksmith made Turn Screws that also were very common in the 18th century.

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/OhioRusty/media/cGF0aDovVHVybnNjcmV3cy5qcGc=/?ref=

However, I find them uncomfortable to use and of course you have to file/grind the blade to match the screw slots on your gun.

My favorites are made from flat stock and either have scales/grips pinned to them like a full tang knife or something like the ones shown in the following link:

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-7HHEaOGG...oOd_dBEUjdZHaAalLLZTgCLcB/s320/Turnscrew1.jpg

Gus

shane a gress said:

What should a historically correct screw driver look like?

Click to expand...

I have ones like the forged metal ones shown in the above posted photo links. Mine are very short, perhaps 2 &3/4 to 3 inches. I have one for each flintlock, filed to fit the cock screw & kept in a very small leather wallet with two spare flints for the gun. The wallets with the flints & turnscrew live in the bottom of the shooting pouch for each gun.

Thanks to all for the info. I will tell Santa that I want a new one for xmas. I have always carried a craftsman Keychain screw driver in my shooting bag but would like to replace it with one that correct.

They are not really hard to make, I make all that type of tools to include pliers that may be needed in the field, which is all contained in the bottom of the shooting bag along with a small vial of oil spare flints, jaw leathers, spare vent pick, jag, ball puller, small piece of linen for wiping either for the gun or a cut finger, main spring vise (the jags and ball puller are made by Larry Calahan) contained in a leather pouch you get the ideal. For me this is one part of shooting the flinters that I find enjoyable. Each rifle or smooth bore has its own set of tools specific to the gun. Give it a go you may be surprised what can be accomplished with a bit of metal a small propane torch perhaps a bit of wood or deer horn for a handle and a belt sander.

A good turnscrew is a must! Easy to make and one every rifleman should procure! Given examples sum it up rather well. A simple piece but vital to firelock maintenance.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/111/1/TOOL-PICK-L

Ive carried this for decades. Was standard issue for the first US Army. Works every part of my flinter.

appalichian hunter said:

They are not really hard to make, I make all that type of tools to include pliers that may be needed in the field, which is all contained in the bottom of the shooting bag along with a small vial of oil spare flints, jaw leathers, spare vent pick, jag, ball puller, small piece of linen for wiping either for the gun or a cut finger, main spring vise (the jags and ball puller are made by Larry Calahan) contained in a leather pouch you get the ideal. For me this is one part of shooting the flinters that I find enjoyable. Each rifle or smooth bore has its own set of tools specific to the gun. Give it a go you may be surprised what can be accomplished with a bit of metal a small propane torch perhaps a bit of wood or deer horn for a handle and a belt sander.

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My teenage son tinkered with blacksmithing for a while till he discovered an arc welder. He made a few turnscrews that were 6 or 7 inches. I'd really like him to make me one. I didn't realize what he made was a period turnscrew. He said he will try and find them in the morning. You know how teenagers are, misplace and scatter everything.

I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS HERE OR IN ENGLAND THAT THE SCREW DRIVER WAS CALLED A "TIRN SCREW".

LOOK AT THOSE MARVELOUSE DUELLING PISTOL CASES WHERE I THIBNK YOU'LL FIND A SAMPLE.

DGHFUTCH SCHOULTZ

shane a gress said:

What should a historically correct screw driver look like?

Click to expand...

Dr5x said:

I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS HERE OR IN ENGLAND THAT THE SCREW DRIVER WAS CALLED A "TIRN SCREW".

LOOK AT THOSE MARVELOUSE DUELLING PISTOL CASES WHERE I THIBNK YOU'LL FIND A SAMPLE.

DGHFUTCH SCHOULTZ

Click to expand...

Thanks, I'll take a look sometime today. I will start calling it a turnscrew from now on. The guys at work won't know what I am talking about. Would be interesting to know when and why it was changed.

Here is a bit of info on the word "turnscrew" I found on a quick google search. I'd take it with a grain of salt for the dates as the Romans were using screws about 2000 years ago. The 1744 date for a bitstock bit is probably correct though. http://the-working-man.com/screwdriver-history.html

appalichian hunter said:

small vial of oil spare flints

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What's that? Do you store flints in oil? If so, that is an old myth that this helps the flints. All you get are oily flints, doesn't help a thing. BTW, to carry a replica of an old turnscrew in your bag can be bulky. I have a couple screwdrivers made from 1/4" mild steel stock heated with a propane torch and twisted to form a small flat handle and a blade pounded at the end. That is ground to fit the screw it is intended to be used in. Then that end is reheated and quenched with no regard for the niceties of hardening or tempering. Works for me, it has lasted decades and the cost was near zero.

I know the OP was asking about what screwdrivers/turn screws looked like but if you're wanting to get one, I found this little guy on Ebay a few years ago for just a couple of bucks. They are out there if you watch for them.

Mickc01 said:

I know the OP was asking about what screwdrivers/turn screws looked like but if you're wanting to get one, I found this little guy on Ebay a few years ago for just a couple of bucks. They are out there if you watch for them.

View attachment 1407

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That is an early/mid 19th century small Cabinet Maker's Turnscrew. I purchased 8 or 9 of them in the early 1980's and modified them to fit UnCivil War period guns I worked on. Generally the steel in them is good and I did not have to re-harden and anneal them after I modified them after filing them to fit modern parallel sided screw slots.

Gus

As to when Americans began calling a Turnscrew by the then “new” name of screwdriver, I don’t know for sure, but no doubt sometime in the 19th century and possibly/probably after the Industrial Revolution. However, the use of the term Turnscrew is still prevalent in the UK and especially in Gun Making. In 1996 and 1998 near Coventry and Kenilworth, UK; I asked where the Turnscrews were kept in a few hardware stores and they always knew what I was referring to.


For most of the period covered by this forum and especially up through the 18th and early 19th century when screw slots were still filed by hand, they used a “V” shape screwdriver slot in the heads of screws “most” of the time and in most trades, though Clock/Watchmaking trades may have gone over to a parallel sided screw slot the earliest. It wasn’t that they didn’t have the capability to hand file parallel sided screw slots (as in all modern screws), though the true reason may be lost in time why they used the "V" shaped slots. It has been suggested that the early “V’ shaped screw slots were easier to Hand Make Turnscrews to fit before screw slots became uniform? I don’t know if that is true or if it was more likely a “V” shape slot was quicker/easier to file and thus less expensive?


Modern Screw Slots were first made Parallel Sided during the Industrial Revolution when they began cutting screw slots with thin circular saws, rather than hand filing them. However and even though modern Parallel Sided Screw Slots have become universal, many if not most common screwdrivers are still made with “V” shaped tips of the blades. The problem with these “V” shaped blade tips is that it is much, MUCH too easy to “Bugger Up” the parallel sided screw slots with a poorly fitting screwdriver.


Notable exceptions to the “V” shaped Screwdriver tips are “Hollow Ground” and Parallel thickness Blade Tips and “Quick Change” Bits used in the Machinist and Gunsmith Trades to ensure the parallel sided screw slots don’t get buggered up. These blade tips apply force equally to the bottoms or sides of the screw slots and thus usually won’t normally bugger up screw slots.


When I began my Gunsmith Apprenticeship in 1974, it had long been the “standard” in this country for Gunsmiths to either hand file parallel side blade tips or hollow grind the blade tips to fit the screws on every gun that gunsmiths worked on. Of course that meant you had to modify or make many Turnscrew/Screwdrivers to work on the different screw slots of different guns. I modified 8 or 9 Turnscrews to work on UnCivil War period Repro and Original screw slots, but I still had to occasionally make/modify a Turnscrew to fit less common screw slots. Of course since the invention/introduction of replaceable screw driver bits in many different sizes in late 60’s/early 70’s, many/most Gunsmith and many machinists have gone over to using them. Unfortunately, these were not available in our Historic Period.

https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-...a-tip-sets/magna-tip-super-sets--prod417.aspx


Many, if not most reproduction gun screw slots are TODAY made with parallel sides, while many if not most replica Turnscrews or Gun Tools are made with period correct “V” shaped tips. That leads to many of the replica Turnscrew and Gun Tools either not fitting modern screw slots at all OR leads to buggering up the screw slots too easily. So many of us with machinist or gunsmith backgrounds either hand file or hollow grind the blade tips to fit to correctly fit the parallel side screw slots on repro guns and then correctly re-harden and anneal the blade tips for long service life.


With the above information well indoctrinated into my head and long years of doing things that way, I was downright shocked to learn that some UK Gunsmiths STILL make the tips of their Turnscrews with a “V” shape, as was done in the historic period and even though the modern screw slots are parallel sided. Of course they very carefully fit them to each screw slot, but I personally believe it is still too easy to bugger up a screw slot with them.


Needless to say I was floored when I first viewed the following You Tube Videos because the Gunsmith advocates for making and using “V” shaped Turnscrew Tips. However, the way he makes the Turnscrews is remarkably the same as many Turnscrews were made in the 18th and 19th centuries, so I offer the videos in that light. Personally, I continue to modify repro Turnscrews and tools by filing the blade tips parallel sided and then sort of rounding the corners left over into the body of the blades or hollow grinding them to fit the modern parallel sided screw slots.

Part 1:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9xAA5UnF1w


Part 2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQH7MQqPf8k


Gus

No Rifleman the flints a secured separately from the oil bottle, As to size of the screw driver or turn screw they a small enough to not take up a lot of room in the separate tool pouch but still get the job done. The manner in which you describe the process of fabricating one is the way I have done them.

Coot said:

I have ones like the forged metal ones shown in the above posted photo links. Mine are very short, perhaps 2 &3/4 to 3 inches. I have one for each flintlock, filed to fit the cock screw & kept in a very small leather wallet with two spare flints for the gun. The wallets with the flints & turnscrew live in the bottom of the shooting pouch for each gun.

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Coot,

Your post is too important not to have someone comment on it. I'm sure Small Blacksmith Type Turnscrews that size would work just dandy and be carried easily in a Shot Pouch. Unfortunately, many of the repro Turnscrews offered by Sutlers are far too large both in the blade and the body. Those are the ones I meant when I wrote I don't care for them. A small Turnscrew like you mentioned and filed to fit the screw slot would be just the ticket.

Gus

Thank you Gus. The above system has worked well for me for some years now & considering the cost of a pouch with the few items needed to shoot the gun compared to the cost of a gun, having a pouch dedicated to each gun has always made sense to me.