pan powder?

[M. De Land]

For information related to this subject only and in the interest of knowledge and safety I will respond from a position of actual experience and many rounds of smokeles duplex loading in black powder cartridge guns. It is safe when kept to 10 percent or less and is/was used widely now and in years past both competitively and professionally but the key is containment.
In a muzzle loader with open ignition (flint or percussion) the large increase in pressure is not contained and once loose goes on a rampage tearing up anything in it's path until the energy spike is spent.
Take any high powered rifle with a safe pressure load . It will handle as many shots as one cares to take unless the pressure gets loose in the action from a blown primer or case head separation then the action can come apart like a grenade.
A muzzle loading rifle when charged with progressive powder alone ,wither flint or percussion, is like firing a high powder rifle with a case head separation and the formerly contained pressure is now loose in the (action/barrel/patent breech ) where it can tear up anything in it's path.
Also many of today's muzzle loading barrels are not made of gun certified steel but rather leaded steel that does not have good pressure shock load numbers. They are particularly susceptible to high pressure spikes (even from black powder only loads) in certain instances like a short started patched ball. I personally examined a 12L14 lead steel barrel split last year from a short started ball with a normal BP only charge.

I would encourage any one who uses or makes muzzle loading arms to investigate what most of the barrels they buy are made of and the intended purpose of the steel alloy used namely 12L14 . It s designed for high speed screw stock and fastener use not gun barrel pressures. The "L" stands for lead content of .15-.35 percent which makes it very machinable. The 12 stands for sulferized and re-philosophized and the 14 stands for the percent in hundreds of the carbon content which is actually only about .09 in this alloy. That means it won't harden.
The upshot of all this is the alloy does not handle pressure shock load well and it gets worse as the temperature drops.
It is said that hot rolled 12L14 is stronger than cold rolled and not being a metallurgist I could not say but I can read and at least one who's paper I have read on this issue has said it is not certified for gun barrel pressures period.
The legal dodge is that all muzzle loaders fall under the reloader category which apparently is bullet proof in court.
There are only a couple of companies that actually use gun barrel certified steel and are the only ones I will currently use.
I still have one rifle with a Douglas XX barrel that is 12L14. It is super accurate but I realize any mistake in loading could make it come apart which is the reason Douglas stopped making muzzle loading barrels of this alloy and altogether.

 

[Bushfire]

I would encourage any one who uses or makes muzzle loading arms to investigate what most of the barrels they buy are made of and the intended purpose of the steel alloy used namely 12L14 . It s designed for high speed screw stock and fastener use not gun barrel pressures. The "L" stands for lead content of .15-.35 percent which makes it very machinable. The 12 stands for sulferized and re-philosophized and the 14 stands for the percent in hundreds of the carbon content which is actually only about .09 in this alloy. That means it won't harden.
The upshot of all this is the alloy does not handle pressure shock load well and it gets worse as the temperature drops.
It is said that hot rolled 12L14 is stronger than cold rolled and not being a metallurgist I could not say but I can read and at least one who's paper I have read on this issue has said it is not certified for gun barrel pressures period.
The legal dodge is that all muzzle loaders fall under the reloader category which apparently is bullet proof in court.
There are only a couple of companies that actually use gun barrel certified steel and are the only ones I will currently use.
I still have one rifle with a Douglas XX barrel that is 12L14. It is super accurate but I realize any mistake in loading could make it come apart which is the reason Douglas stopped making muzzle loading barrels of this alloy and altogether.

Who today commercially makes gun barrel certified steel?

 

[M. De Land]

Who today commercially makes gun barrel certified steel?

Green Mountain for one does , the alloy is 1134 and is what I use now. I have heard but cannot verify that ED Rayl sp if he's still alive and or in business used/uses 4130-40 . Most of the big names still use 12L14 . I've known about the alloy for some years but last year I actually was present at a warm indoor range when a 12L14 barrel split from a normal BP only charge behind a short started patched ball.
I've never seen a barrel split or even bulged before from a short start patched ball and I've been at this game for over 50 years.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

I guess that means all the Investarms, CVA, TC's etc?? I have never heard of any of them blowing up without someone having done something terribly wrong!? Maybe I just missed it all?

 

[deerstalkert]

this thread. heck most threads anymore.

 

[M. De Land]

I guess that means all the Investarms, CVA, TC's etc?? I have never heard of any of them blowing up without someone having done something terribly wrong!? Maybe I just missed it all?

I am talking about after market barrels used for kit or custom made guns etc. I have no idea of what alloy of barrel steel is used in the gun manufacturing companies you mention.
I also know that Douglas stopped making muzzle loading barrels after several failures of barrels using this alloy.
12L14 may work for ever if no mistakes are made but people make mistakes and it is terribly unforgiving under the right conditions if there are and users should be made aware of this . It is said that cold rolled 12L14 is supposed to be weaker than is the same alloy that is hot rolled. A metallurgist would need to comment on this.
I know of no one who has not short started a ball at one time or another wither or not they actually knew or remembered it or not at the time.

 

[M. De Land]

this thread. heck most threads anymore.
View attachment 160698

These are nothing more than typed out conversations and what conversation ever stays on the same topic ?

 

[Snake Pleskin]

I am talking about after market barrels used for kit or custom made guns etc. I have no idea of what alloy of barrel steel is used in the gun manufacturing companies you mention.
I also know that Douglas stopped making muzzle loading barrels after several failures of barrels using this alloy.
12L14 may work for ever if no mistakes are made but people make mistakes and it is terribly unforgiving under the right conditions if there are and users should be made aware of this . It is said that cold rolled 12L14 is supposed to be weaker than is the same alloy that is hot rolled. A metallurgist would need to comment on this.
I know of no one who has not short started a ball at one time or another wither or not they actually knew or remembered it or not at the time.

The companies I mentioned are all well known makers of ML's both complete and in kit form. Many are made in Italy, TC used to be made in the USA, but I am not certain they rare any more or if they are still made at all.

 

[NorthFork]

I know I'm late to the party here but.....


For God's sakes keep Bulleye away any muzzleloader PLEASE. I reload pistol. Bullseye is a very fast burning smokeless powder.

 

[NorthFork]

Thanks for all the great replies. So, I will take that as a NO. I would NEVER use smokeless powder as a main charge in a muzzle loader that's crazy talk. Iwas just curious about use as pan ignition. Which NO is the answer. I've got a lot of 2F I'll try the grinding it down to a finer granulation.
Thanks for all the good info.

2F by itself is fine in the pan. You do NOT need to grind the powder finer!

 

[NorthFork]

I guess that means all the Investarms, CVA, TC's etc?? I have never heard of any of them blowing up without someone having done something terribly wrong!? Maybe I just missed it all?

You are both correct. @M. De Land is correct in reference to 12L14 used in American ML barrels. I own barrels/rifles using this alloy. I too am aware that any mistake could lead to problems. Newer T/C, newer CVA (non Douglas), Investarms/Lyman, Pedersoli, Rayl, Green Mountain, and Traditions all use steel alloys that are correct for gun barrels. Colerain, most Rice, Montana, and Oregon (at least as of a few years ago) use 12L14. 12L14 in a ML barrel is not really all that bad but, but it's not the correct use of that alloy. The maker of that alloy has said in the past that it is NOT for gun barrels. However any reasonable load that is loaded correctly is safe. Any mistake in loading a 12L14 barrel, and M. De Land is correct again concerning ambient temp, is more likely to cause a problem than other more traditional gun barrel approved alloys. Even Remington had some real headaches with some shotgun barrels a few years ago that should of been safe using a 'safe' alloy which was 1137. Nothing is written in stone here guys (other than 12L14 is not for gun barrels per the foundry). Be reasonable in loading and don't short start or any other loading mistake and your 12L14 barrel will be just fine.

 

[Codger Craig Wilcox]

My question on the topic is WHY? Why in the heck would anyone want to introduce smokeless powder into a BLACK POWDER firearm?

Where is the fun of trying to see your target, either a piece of paper or an animal, through a gray cloud of smoke? Where is the fun of having black skin and hands after a session at the range?

When I started shooting ML's in the NSSA back in 1960, I'd end a day at Camp A. P. hill or Ft. Meade with black lips from pulling the Minie ball with my mouth so i could drop the powder charge down the barrel. you cannot do that with smokeless!

Let's get back to the fun and dirt and mess of the game, and leave all that smokeless manure to the suppository gang. If you want to stay clean and neat, leave the ML's and go the brass container route.

Less hazardous to just stick with BP - it IS available now!

 

[Snake Pleskin]

You are both correct. @M. De Land is correct in reference to 12L14 used in American ML barrels. I own barrels/rifles using this alloy. I too am aware that any mistake could lead to problems. Newer T/C, newer CVA (non Douglas), Investarms/Lyman, Pedersoli, Rayl, Green Mountain, and Traditions all use steel alloys that are correct for gun barrels. Colerain, most Rice, Montana, and Oregon (at least as of a few years ago) use 12L14. 12L14 in a ML barrel is not really all that bad but, but it's not the correct use of that alloy. The maker of that alloy has said in the past that it is NOT for gun barrels. However any reasonable load that is loaded correctly is safe. Any mistake in loading a 12L14 barrel, and M. De Land is correct again concerning ambient temp, is more likely to cause a problem than other more traditional gun barrel approved alloys. Even Remington had some real headaches with some shotgun barrels a few years ago that should of been safe using a 'safe' alloy which was 1137. Nothing is written in stone here guys (other than 12L14 is not for gun barrels per the foundry). Be reasonable in loading and don't short start or any other loading mistake and your 12L14 barrel will be just fine.

So, how does one know what the barrel is made out f I have a GPR Investarms Lyman and No where on any site or manual etc does in indicate what steel is used in the barrels,

 

[NorthFork]

So, how does one know what the barrel is made out f I have a GPR Investarms Lyman and No where on any site or manual etc does in indicate what steel is used in the barrels,

Both Lyman/Investarms and Pedersoli only have stated in the past that they use chromoly alloy steels for the barrels. Never stating the EXACT alloy. 41XX steels are chromoly. 12L14 can not be chromoly. Getting the exact specs from Investarms and Pedersoli (both have made the GPR at some point) would be akin to blood from a turnip. Here is a list of COMMON chromoly steel alloys-

4118, 4120, 4130, 4140, 4150

I have intentionally left out the less common alloys 'cause I'm lazy. There is a whole slew of 'em.

This is quite a deep 'rabbit hole' to go down with lots of twists and turns and deadends. However if you wish to spend the time and effort, the info is out there in dribs and drabs.

But I still say a properly made barrel from 12L14 AND loaded sanely is safe under virtually all conditions.

But we have gotten off topic here. No ONE should EVER use smokeless powder of any type in ANY muzzleloader for ANY reason unless one is loading and shooting a SAVAGE 10ML under explicit direction from the included manual. There is a reason why the 10ML has but three (3) powders and one (1) sabot/bullet combination allowed. Period. End. Of. Story. What your drunk redneck cousins buddy did last 4rth of July has no bearing on reality. What some youtuber did has little bearing on reality. Muzzleloaders and smokeless powder do not mix! EVER!

 

[deerstalkert]

Both Lyman/Investarms and Pedersoli only have stated in the past that they use chromoly alloy steels for the barrels. Never stating the EXACT alloy. 41XX steels are chromoly. 12L14 can not be chromoly. Getting the exact specs from Investarms and Pedersoli (both have made the GPR at some point) would be akin to blood from a turnip. Here is a list of COMMON chromoly steel alloys-

4118, 4120, 4130, 4140, 4150

I have intentionally left out the less common alloys 'cause I'm lazy. There is a whole slew of 'em.

This is quite a deep 'rabbit hole' to go down with lots of twists and turns and deadends. However if you wish to spend the time and effort, the info is out there in dribs and drabs.

But I still say a properly made barrel from 12L14 AND loaded sanely is safe under virtually all conditions.

But we have gotten off topic here. No ONE should EVER use smokeless powder of any type in ANY muzzleloader for ANY reason unless one is loading and shooting a SAVAGE 10ML under explicit direction from the included manual. There is a reason why the 10ML has but three (3) powders and one (1) sabot/bullet combination allowed. Period. End. Of. Story. What your drunk redneck cousins buddy did last 4rth of July has no bearing on reality. What some youtuber did has little bearing on reality. Muzzleloaders and smokeless powder do NOT mix! EVER!

fixed it fer ya!

 

[NorthFork]

fixed it fer ya!

Fixed what?

 

[deerstalkert]

your post said " Muzzleloaders and smokeless powder do mix! EVER!" no offense intended.

 

[M. De Land]

You are both correct. @M. De Land is correct in reference to 12L14 used in American ML barrels. I own barrels/rifles using this alloy. I too am aware that any mistake could lead to problems. Newer T/C, newer CVA (non Douglas), Investarms/Lyman, Pedersoli, Rayl, Green Mountain, and Traditions all use steel alloys that are correct for gun barrels. Colerain, most Rice, Montana, and Oregon (at least as of a few years ago) use 12L14. 12L14 in a ML barrel is not really all that bad but, but it's not the correct use of that alloy. The maker of that alloy has said in the past that it is NOT for gun barrels. However any reasonable load that is loaded correctly is safe. Any mistake in loading a 12L14 barrel, and M. De Land is correct again concerning ambient temp, is more likely to cause a problem than other more traditional gun barrel approved alloys. Even Remington had some real headaches with some shotgun barrels a few years ago that should of been safe using a 'safe' alloy which was 1137. Nothing is written in stone here guys (other than 12L14 is not for gun barrels per the foundry). Be reasonable in loading and don't short start or any other loading mistake and your 12L14 barrel will be just fine.

Good post and accurate assessment of the relative risk. I'm going to still keep shooting my one Douglas barreled .54 Hawken but will remember that the safety margin is not present and therefore any new ones I make will wear Green Mtn. barrels.
Years ago I did ring a TC .50 cal from a maxi ball that worked forward off the powder charge during a day of carry ,muzzle down , while moose hunting. I fired it at the end of the day to clear and it ringed the barrel about 8 inches back from the muzzle. It didn't split but it looked like a snake that swallowed a rat.
As to smokeless in a muzzle loader they just don't mix , ever, as even a barrel of modern alloy would at least bulge and probably split if shooting a charge of smokeless. The reason is the pressure level difference between the two powders in an open ignition design.

 

[NorthFork]

your post said " Muzzleloaders and smokeless powder do mix! EVER!" no offense intended.

OH MY! Didn't catch that. Thanks.

 

[Dead-Eye]

fixed it fer ya!

No, it still doesn't have a NOT in the sentence.... That's a pretty important misstep. Jim