Can you identify this old knife please

I have had this old butcher knife, I think it is from it's looks, for quite some time. Any chance anyone on the forum can possibly identify it? I bought it from an old guy at a gun show. He hadn't sold anything all day, I was looking at it and he said: "Five dollars and it is yours". He said it would change his luck if I bought it from him. So I bought it. I guess it helped, shortly there were a lot of people standing around his table and they were buying things from him. So I'm glad things picked up for him. I hope the link to the pictures work.
http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Haroldbrett1950/media/imagejpg2_zpsc442854f.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1
http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Haroldbrett1950/media/imagejpg2_zpsc442854f.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1

No reply, just a view of the other side. The knife is about 15 1/2" long including the handle and the blade, what is left of it, is 10" long.
http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/...psb48f610e.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2&postlogin=true

Almost impossible to identify the maker. There were probably millions of that design of butcher knife made both in factories and blacksmith shops. It is a good example of the era but without a makers mark???

No distinguishable marks that I can see/find on the blade or handle. The metal between the handles is a little over 3/16" thick but the exposed blade is about 1/8" probably from being sharpened, washed and being cleaned. It almost appears to have been forged but don't know if it is that old or not.

We have a butcher shop that has old ones hangin on the wall,Old Hickory possibly,looks like something a set of buff skinners would use..

Looks like a couple I have and use regularly. I think I got them at an antique shop years ago. Love the steel and the way they sharpen. I'm doubtful they are real 'antiques'. Just old.

No good way to put an age to it, as it is a very common style. I've picked these up at garage and yard sale/ Flea markets. Probably worth about $5.00 .

Looks like Culter's Rivets holding the scales on the blade, so it is post 1876. Here is an article that might help you in understanding what to look for in an "Original" knife that will look right.
http://www.manuellisaparty.com/articles/pfd's/Some Thoughts on Butchers.pdf

Myself I have an original Green River, but its a 5 pin one so while not any actual pre 1840 artifact, it does look right.

I appreciate the info on the knives, especially the link, I didn't think my knife was valuable or a collector. Just wondering if it would be good to carry in my re-enacting which sounds like it is. Hey for $5.00, definitely worth the price. Again, thanks, I always know where to go to get some good info.

If your doing cowboy period its a great knife, but it not good for any pre 1850 period events.

You mean folks back before 1850 didn't have a good looking butcher knife like that back then?

Who would have guessed?

Technology changes either mean something in this hobby or they dont.

If you use a butcher knife that is put together with cutler's rivets like this one, and think thats fine, to me at least its akin to using a percussion gun for Rev War reenacting.

A whole bunch of people use butchers like this, some thru ignorance, others because they are constructing an impression that they want to look good from 100 yard away, others just because they know its wrong and want to thumb their nose at the stich counters........

I know that the use of knives like this, or tinware made on machines that were not patented till the 1890's will ever be relegated to the bone pile like lean pea's, but I'm not going to just ignore them either.

Guy asked a question, I answered it to the best of my ability. If he wants to use it thats between him and the people who run events in his area.

For $ 5.00, that's 1/2 to almost 1/3 the cost of a new blade by itself. I might consider it an "assembled kit" that I would take the scales off and replace them with new scales and the correct number and placement of pins per Luke's article above. You can buy small diameter cold rolled steel rods at most of the big box hardware stores to cut the pins from.

HINT: Drill the pin holes in the handle, glue ONE slab on and when it dries, drill through the tang holes through that slab while the slab is on a sacrificial scrap wood piece. Then the drill bit most likely won't chip out the surface of the slab. Then glue the other slab on, drill through the first slab and tang and through the second slab as it sits on a sacrificial piece of wood. Now you won't have a problem getting the pins aligned with the tang and slabs. Cut the pins a bit longer than the width of the slabs and tang and glue them in place. File the pins close to the surface of the slabs and peen them GENTLY on both sides of the slabs. Then file the ends flush with the slabs. Shape the slabs like you want and add at least one coat of finish on them or better still, two or more coats.

You probably won't use the original formula of cutler's glue, but probably two part CLEAR epoxy glue. Mix some brick dust in it and it will look very much like original cutler's glue.

Short of not having a period maker's mark, the knife will now be correct for pre 1850 and you will have pride in doing the work yourself.

Gus

I could be wrong, but from what I've found, many, if not most or all, early butchers had no blade extending below the tang. In other words, the blade had no heel and the tang began where the edge stopped. If you want to get picky with it.

horner75 said:

No good way to put an age to it, as it is a very common style. I've picked these up at garage and yard sale/ Flea markets. Probably worth about $5.00 .

Click to expand...

My "garage sale" knives were actually probably just $1.00 each. But it would be a challenge to find blades that take and hold an edge better than these. They are my favorite kitchen knives.

I think your advice is best, Artificer. Remake that knife! He's got a good blade there...just get rid of the original scales, re-drill holes, re-shape the blade to something 1700's, and use common nails for pins on the new knife.

Thank you. It looks to me like the link that Luke provided shows butcher knives having the edge a little below the handle. So by the time one files or carefully "straightens out" the bottom of the edge, it will be fine as to blade shape.

Of course what we can't see is if the tang is tapered as was common on full length tangs in the 18th century due to them being forged by "upsetting" the metal to spread it out. If one was REALLY picky, one might do that or cut the tang to where it is a 1/3 or 1/2 tang length and saw the wood handle to mount it in. However, before I did something like that, I would probably just taper the tang a bit by filing, reshape it slightly and go with it.

Gus

My understanding that the butcher knives with the edge extending below the tang started showing up around 1860 (I think I got that from Hanson's Fur Trade Cutlery Sketch Book). As stated the cutler rivets make it post 1840.
BUT....the tang would be a very important feature. A lot of the pre-1840 butchers were half tangs and had a double taper, the tang thinned towards the rear AND thins towards the edge and this double taper created a slanted rear to the tang- the top extending farther back than the bottom. The top should appear to thin as it extends farther back while the bottom is almost a knife edge the entire length.
Why this design? The blades were forged and steel was expensive- probably the best use of the steel- without having more than needed.
And...just because a butcher has this double tapered tang doesn't mean you found a pre-1840 treasure, the style extended up to the 1900's (The Wilson catalog). Full tangs apparently are pre-1840, or so I am constantly told although I haven't found many, but, it is safe to say a lot (most?) of the pre-1840 butcher knives had this double taper. The scalping knives were different- a half tang with just a single taper to the rear- as much as I can figure.

If English, which it would look to be in shape when finished, some of the English blades had a wrought iron tang forge welded to the main blade, which was not always tapered. Chuck Burrows has, or had, photos in which the weld joint can be seen due to the patina differences between the two metals. I think you might safely leave the tang as is, and still be PC. He would know better than I the details concerning this.

Wick, were they full length tangs or half length tangs? Thanks.