Wolves?

[KHickam]

Well, fellas I am glad this thread came along - because it interested me enough to do a cursory look see about what ya'll were talking about.

Prior to this I was pretty much ignorant (still am probably) and thought wolves is wolves. And I admit all this talk about super predator wolves got me looking around some. Well, here is a cursory view of what I discovered (no doubt many of you knew this stuff already)

There evidently are three subspecies of wolves whose range overlapped and abutted each other across the Great Plains and Northern Rockies.

They are:

Canis lupus irremotus - The Northern Rocky Mountain Wolf, evidently this animal is around 70-135 lbs - it is evidently one of the largest subspecies of gray wolf. It was the traditional wolf of the Yellowstone area and evidently fed on elk, mule deer and other animals. It does hunt in packs or individually.

Canis lupus nubilus: Great Plains or Buffalo Wolf - Evidently this is the most common subspecies of gray wolf in the United States. It weighs from 60-110 lbs - and this is the common
wolf in Minnesota. They feed on moose, whitetail deer, and smaller mammals and birds. They hunt in packs - typical size of the pack is evidently 6-8 wolves. They are found in the Great Lakes area now and occasionally in North and South Dakota (lone individuals) but once roamed a much larger area. The range of this animal overlaps and abutts the range of the Northern Rocky Mountain Wolf and the Mackenzie Valley Wolf.

Canis lupus occidentalis - Mackenzie Valley Wolf or the Canadian Timber Wolf. These are considered the largest subspecies of gray wolf. With individuals weighing 100-145 lbs (the largest recorded was 175 lbs). The average pack is 6-12 animals and some packs have 20 or more. They prey on muskox, caribou, wood bison, elk and deer. These are the wolves that were introduced to Yellowstone and central Idaho. However, their traditional range OVERLAPPED the range of both the Northern Rocky Mountain Wolf and the Great Plains wolf.

So, granted my information is really scanty - just searched info on the web. It seems to me that although perhaps the government should have used one of the other two subspecies and not the Mackenzie Valley Wolf - that some of the other things seems very similiar to me.

The Canadian Wolves ARE NOT 1/3 bigger than the native Northern Rocky Mountain Wolf - being that the difference in the biggest males of both subspecies is a mere 10 lbs. Even the smaller Great Plains wolf weighs only 35 lbs less than the Mackenzie Valley Wolf (biggest average weight) and that would be about 25% smaller.

But, from what I read these wolves were not indigenous to the Rocky Mountains but the western edge of their range overlapped the eastern range of the Northern Rocky Mountain Wolf. And the southern range of the Mackenzie Valley Wolf overlapped the northern range of the Great Plains wolf.

Both the Great Plains Wolf and the Northern Rocky Mountain Wolf were hunted to the brink of extinction by farmers, ranchers and sheepherders - because - You guessed it they too killed livestock!!!!!!!!!!!! :shocked2:

So, although I can see that perhaps the re-introduction of wolves to Yellowstone perhaps should have come from Minnesota - they didn't and I think had they done so - those wolves would have done the same thing that the Mackenzie Valley Wolves did - kill elk, deer and livestock because that was what they do. Regardless, of subspecies wolves are apex predators in their environment.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Vaino]

And after the wolves are delisted, then what? Wholesale slaughter as was done in our early history? I'm in favour of the delisting but w/ only a controlled hunting provision and then the question arises as to who determines what the "kill quota" will be vs the allowable numbers per given land area. Many, many questions on this, so will have to do some "digging". Hopefully these bills will be satisfactory to all factions concerned. Also a big "thank you" to KHickam for the enlightened and factual info on the wolf sub species and their environs....Fred

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Do we slaughter any animal right now? We can't even control Coyotes, and we can hunt then all year with no limit.

Is everything black and white with you?

 

[hoochiepapa]

If the hunting of wolves is handled the same way as hunting of other species, I think there will probably be quotas. I can't imagine that the bunny huggers would consign to wholesale killing, and would use their influence.
Glad to see this thread gained some semblance of adult discussion.

 

[longcruise]

We can't even control Coyotes, and we can hunt then all year with no limit.

Oddly, one of the natural controls of coyotes is wolves. Apparently they attack and kill coyotes on sight. Saw a video of that very thing happening in YNP.

Coyotes seem to be way more prolific than wolves.

 

[Mattole]

"In summation....this topic has degenerated into "who knows or dosen't know" asre wolves and the last post espouses anti -science and anti- gov't sentiments. "
Well Fred, I was responding directly to Brent, there is no degeneration off topic, because, All, these things play into the subject. I love science and learning of the new discovery's they they share, I don't care the subject. The twisting of science to help a political agenda infuriates me, and there are many sciences that are becoming nothing more than the tool of the lefty's in government, does global warming ring a bell, in your left ear! The bureaucracy is so infiltrated with left wing, I know more about what is good for you than you do, so we will do it my way, that they are building their version of a utopian society based on lies. The anti-gun, anti hunting groups, within the bureaucracy are symbiotic in this. No game, no need for guns, no guns, no hunting. An over simplification, yes, but don't believe that it isn't happening. With every impediment they put in the way of hunters and gun owners, there are a certain percentage of hunters, gun owners that throw up there hands an say the heck with it I'm done, they know this! Less numbers less power, the constitution be damned.
Anti government? If you mean this government, you bet! I have been fighting the communists virtually all my life. I have read my constitution and I understand it, I believe in it, I have sworn to protect and defend it against all enemies, foreign and domestic. You might try reading it, but I think you would give it as much time as you did the web site Green Mountain Boy provided you.

Holy Glenn Beck, batman! I am no fan of this president and much of his administration, but I hope you were similarly on guard for the sanctity of the Constitution during the last administration, when it seems that every constitutional scholar out there was squirming in horror..

 

[Idaho Ron]

So what we need to do is bring back small pox and other NASTY diseases because they are extinct in their natural environment?
I can only hope that Parvo Virus is spread through the woods where these wolves live. I hope that every last whimpering pup has parvo and they spread it to others. Now that is how I hope it goes down “naturally” then the hunters can step back and say yes it is good. Ron

 

[JMinnerath]

So what we need to do is bring back small pox and other NASTY diseases because they are extinct in their natural environment?
I can only hope that Parvo Virus is spread through the woods where these wolves live. I hope that every last whimpering pup has parvo and they spread it to others. Now that is how I hope it goes down “naturally” then the hunters can step back and say yes it is good. Ron

Pretty weird comment.

There have been attempts to pass legislation similar to that proposed now several times before.
I don't really have too much hope of seeing this passed yet.
Getting a hunting season established outside of YNP will happen eventually, but might take a different administration.
I'm not much of a fan of Federal agencies, but in the years since this wolf program has been going on some pretty good people with the FWS have been involved. The feds are going to have a big say, no matter what, but I think the various states game and fish commissions are willing to work with FWS to establish workable seasons and quotas.
If the cattlemen's associations can be brought on board there could be enough power to stop the extremists who still want to see the wolves spread uncontrolled.

 

[Robby]

I was.
Robby

 

[larry wv]

Here in western Wv the coyotes are killing the Deer faster than ever. The last few years the population has fallen through the floor. Only saw a few fawns this year. More coyotes each year. SURE hope the state doesn,t turn Wolves loose to control the coyotes :shocked2: All jokes aside the deer are almost gone in this area all in about two years. Larry

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Do you hunt the Coyotes?

 

[Goldhunter]

And after the wolves are delisted, then what? Wholesale slaughter as was done in our early history?

No. That's a very silly suggestion.

I'm in favour of the delisting but w/ only a controlled hunting provision and then the question arises as to who determines what the "kill quota" will be vs the allowable numbers per given land area.

Yes. They would be managed by the State Wildlife Depts, just like the other game species in those states. Notice I said 'game' species and not 'non-game' species. In UT the coyote is considered non-game therefore no license is needed and they are not controled (I beleive that's the case in most of the western states).

I now for a fact that Idaho had a management plan in place when they were first delisted to control the population. I need to check again but I beleive MT and WY also did. Then the lawsuits came...

The states need to be able to manage thier own wildlife. And the can. LA Times Article

Some food for thought:

Big Game Population Statistics, Idaho

Lolo Elk Herd, Idaho
Before Wolf Introduction: 20,000
After Wolf Introduction: 1,700

I'm researching other state stats.

Now, that being said, are these numberous because of wolf predation of because the wolves are pushing the elk and moose into more remote areas? I don't know. I can some what agree with the remote area arguement. But I also know the conversations I've had with my Brother In Law, (montana resident) that hunts elk alot and covers alot of ground doing it. He has notice a drastic decease in numbers, and he hunts remote areas also.

Both arguments are out there. But if they are pushing the wildlife out, are they going to follow or start looking for other sources of food. Cattle? dogs? Sheep? Horses? :idunno: There is alot of info out there, from the anti-hunting groups as well as the hunting groups. Seems like the majority of the stats I find from the anti-hunting groups are pre-2009 and claim no impact on other wildlife.

Another question: If wolves are left protected and unchecked, how much money is the taxpayer going to have to spend on federal predator control programs? I recently read that professional wolf hunters in Idaho are reportedly paid $1500.00 plus helicopter time for each wolf removal. Why not let hunters do the same thing? Then it's a personal choice to spend the money. :hmm:

Food for thought.

 

[John Wasmuth]

On the game ranches I work on its been my observation that mt. lions, coyotes and bobcat kill something fresh more often than the return to rancid meat. They take healthy does, bucks, and fawns. To date they have not worried the bison, elk, addax, or eland that I know of. My biggest worry about them is that they will take our bison calves. When that happens the bison cows are truely hard to get along with. I can just imagine what wolves would do to us down here.

 

[John Wasmuth]

Do you hunt the Coyotes?

I kill everyone of them I see, lions and bobcat as well. As I posted earlier in this thread, when you start loosing thousands of dollars a year you take on a whole different out look to the problem.

Edited to add that for every one of them we see there are probably 10 we don't see and they are always hungry.

 

[tg]

"and I frankly, despise such arrogance."

Self loathing is an interesting phenomenom, from what I have heard.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Do you hunt the Coyotes?

I kill everyone of them I see, lions and bobcat as well. As I posted earlier in this thread, when you start loosing thousands of dollars a year you take on a whole different out look to the problem.

Edited to add that for every one of them we see there are probably 10 we don't see and they are always hungry.

Good deal.

I hunt Coyotes for 5-6 ranchers to clean out their Coyotes. I do it for nothing, but they let me hunt their property during deer season. So, it's good for both of us.

 

[larry wv]

Yes on the hunting Coyotes. Not many people do though. Larry