Why were barrels swamped?

[Vaino]

Did any old European guns, especially German jägers, have swamped bbls or is the swamped bbl an "American thing"? If some European rifles had short bbls which were swamped, what were the advantages, except for aesthetics? Don't know any answers to these questions, but certainly would like to know....Fred

 

[Sunkmanitu Tanka]

Just to be on the PC side: that was actually not Daniel Boone but Davey Crocket! I saw it myself! :rotf:

 

[longcruise]

Having watched the boys from Williamsburg year after year at Dixon's gunmaker's faire weld an iron skelp into a round tube, I really think that the barrels turned out that way from the welding process. They just went with the flow when hammering the flats and left them that way. JMHO, nothing more, I have no way to verify this idea.

That was what I always thought too!

Another thing comes to mind; maybe it was the result of the wear on the grinding wheels or the point at which pressure was applied to the barrel to hold it to the wheel. This is based on my perception that the barrels were laid on the flat side of a large grinding wheel.

 

[flintriflesmith]

Did any old European guns, especially German jägers, have swamped bbls or is the swamped bbl an "American thing"? If some European rifles had short bbls which were swamped, what were the advantages, except for aesthetics? Don't know any answers to these questions, but certainly would like to know....Fred

While the term "swamped" is not a period term, the octagonal barrels on Jaegers were almost always tapered and flared. See the Jaeger book that Jim Chambers sells or George Shumway's articles in Muzzle Blasts for original examples. Several of the modern custom made Jaeger barrels are fairly true copies of the original taper and flare.

Definately NOT an American development!

 

[hanshi]

I always heard the first swamped barrel was an accident (poor workmanship) when trying to makle a tapered barrel and when challenged the maker made great claims that it was done on purpose and came up with all of the claims of betterment. ???

Works for me!

 

[hanshi]

I heard Daniel Boone didn't swab between shots and got his rammin rod stuck in the bore. He pulled so hard that he stretched the barrel out in the middle and there afters everyone wanted one that way jus like Daniels. Least ways that's how it was a told ta me.

That's happened to me a time or two.

 

[StewartLeach]

Good discussion here.

One reason is that it was dicovered long ago that barrels where the OD at muzzle is larger than at midway are more accurate. Two reasons for this, 1-the enlargement has a slight choking effect, and 2-the heavier section acts to damp vibrations. Take a look at the rifles built by Anschutz and others for Olympic small bore competition- they are all nose heavy.

White Fox

 

[Zonie]

I've always thought that the reason, as others have said, was to provide a thick breech to withstand the pressures in that area and to provide a thick wall at the muzzle to give the weld added strength.

These old barrels were always hammer welded and the weld seam is the weak part of the process.
By making the muzzle larger the length, and therefore the strength of the weld is greater.
The welded material behind the muzzle does provide some strength to the weld at the muzzle but as there is no material beyond the muzzle the weld there must withstand the pressure pretty much by itself.

The area between the muzzle and the breech can be thinner because at any given point along its length the weld is supported by the adjacent welded area right next to it.

The weld at the muzzle is so critical that many of the barrel makers who make barrels the old fashioned way by welding skelps heat up the end of the almost finished barrel to welding temperature and then ram its end directly into the anvil. This process also enlarges the muzzle area a bit and greatly adds to the homogeneity of the iron.

After commercial rolling mills were established in the early 1800's, strong, uniform section barrels could be made without welding.
As they were less labor intensive than the hand welded and forged barrels they cost less.
That lead to using these straight octagon barrels even though they weighed considerably more and basically ruined the balance of the rifles.

 

[nkbj]

Kinda makes you wonder if the thinner center portion may have been worked to have substantially improved tensile properties. May have been the strongest steel in a barrel.

 

[Dphar]

Kinda makes you wonder if the thinner center portion may have been worked to have substantially improved tensile properties. May have been the strongest steel in a barrel.

They were welded from a single strip of iron called a "skelp" that was somewhat shorter than the finished barrel would be.

The barrels were typically cold hammered to increase their hardness somewhat.

Dan

 

[Leonredbeard]

Zonie,
I have seen the 'boys' get the barrel a little thin a a given spot. The remedy was called 'stacking' They reheated the thin section and rammed it onto a large block of wood This caused the white hot section to get thicker and shorter.
And you are right, according to them, the two ends of the barrel have the weakest weld. If memory serves me, they actually trim the ends back a short space to have good solid welding to work with before beginning the process of boring and rifling. The flats are hammered before boring and rifling.
volatpluvia

 

[Frank/Pa]

I read a long time ago, and am not sure where I read it, but they used a grinding wheel to grind the flats on the barrel and that process is what created the swamping effect on the barrel. In short the manufacturing process is what gave us the swamped barrel.

Filing on the flats could also create a swamping effect. Ever try to draw file a long barrel? You put more pressure on the midpoint of the barrel than you do the ends, and it is very easy to swamp a barrel if you are not careful. Would be even more easily done with the soft iron used back in the 1700s than the steel on today's barrels.

 

[Dphar]

I read a long time ago, and am not sure where I read it, but they used a grinding wheel to grind the flats on the barrel and that process is what created the swamping effect on the barrel. In short the manufacturing process is what gave us the swamped barrel.

Grinding that much of the barrel would be a terrible waste of material at a time when iron was less common than now. They used wheels for cleanup in barrel forging shops. Or files.
They were forged to shape during the welding process and by the shape of the skelp.

Dan

 

[Stumpkiller]

If it was the result of grinding wheels wouldn't the center section be the thinnest instead of flaring at the muzzle end? And who has arms long enough to work a 44" or longer barrel smoothly along a stationary grinding wheel?

I would think the swamping was deliberate (for balance) and worked in while forging and then smoothed out when draw-filing.

 

[Vaino]

Perhaps some of the "old time" gunsmiths didn't even know the reason for the swamp? Something like this gets started in Europe and is brought to America by the early gunsmiths and the reason is lost for all perpetuity. I guess all we can do is guess? Judging something that started way back when w/ "modern logic and technology" sometimes leads to the wrong conclusion?....Fred