-
This community needs YOUR help today. We rely 100% on Supporting Memberships to fund our efforts. With the ever increasing fees of everything, we need help. We need more Supporting Members, today. Please invest back into this community. I will ship a few decals too in addition to all the account perks you get.
Sign up here: https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/account/upgrades -
Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.
We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.
Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103
Vinegar-cotton rope finish
- Thread starter dbutch
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2005
- Messages
- 5,024
- Reaction score
- 9,998
Hi Guys,
The barrels simulate a "stub twist", which were the high end barrels used by British makers in the late 18th and early 19th century. It is NOT Damascus. Damascus twist barrels used metal skelps made from twisted steel and iron wire. Stub twist used iron salvaged from horseshoe nails and good quality steel. The striped pattern in twist barrels is derived from the browning or bluing acid etching the soft iron more than the harder steel. The rusting solution would remain darker in the lower etched areas and lighter in the raised areas where the rust brown was carded off. I created the same conditions by etching the barrels with ferric chloride acid (circuit board etchant). The light areas were protected by asphaltum ground acid resist and the dark areas were etched by the acid. The ground was painted on with small brushes to match the irregular twist pattern. I experimented with many techniques to do this patterning. Using rope, twine, or thread won't work because it is very difficult to reproduce the crisp, intricate and semi-random patterning found on real twist barrels. Painting the whole barrel with resist or lacquer and scraping in the pattern doesn't work very well because the resist does not scrape away cleanly and it is difficult to follow the pattern properly all the way around the barrel. The best way I found to do it was to paint the pattern on with brushes learning to make hair thin lines as well as thicker ones. The pattern was painted on and then the muzzle was sealed with a cork and painted with resist. The breech was also painted with resist. Then the barrels were soaked in ferric chloride for 30 minutes. After that they were washed in water and then water mixed with baking soda. At that point the pattern is beautiful and authentic. You could just coat the barrel with cold bluing and card it off the high spots for a spectacular finish. I wanted a traditional British finish so I browned the barrels with Dixie's browning solution, which has a redder coppery tone than other solutions. I carded the barrels with 1500 grit paper wrapped around a block of wood to remove rust only from the high points. That created the strong tiger striping. After achieving a light coppery brown, I put the barrels in an oven and heated them to 490 degrees to darken the bronze tones. Then I simply let the barrels cool to a warm temp and buffed them with beeswax. My method is not new. There are a number of good makers who have done the same thing to fake a twist pattern. It is not hard to do but requires some practice and patience. I could easily pattern a full length barrel in a day. Most of all, you need to know what the patterns really looked like. I am fortunate to have handled several twist barreled pistols and I have a large library of photos. I modeled my barrels on a pair made by John Manton.
dave
The barrels simulate a "stub twist", which were the high end barrels used by British makers in the late 18th and early 19th century. It is NOT Damascus. Damascus twist barrels used metal skelps made from twisted steel and iron wire. Stub twist used iron salvaged from horseshoe nails and good quality steel. The striped pattern in twist barrels is derived from the browning or bluing acid etching the soft iron more than the harder steel. The rusting solution would remain darker in the lower etched areas and lighter in the raised areas where the rust brown was carded off. I created the same conditions by etching the barrels with ferric chloride acid (circuit board etchant). The light areas were protected by asphaltum ground acid resist and the dark areas were etched by the acid. The ground was painted on with small brushes to match the irregular twist pattern. I experimented with many techniques to do this patterning. Using rope, twine, or thread won't work because it is very difficult to reproduce the crisp, intricate and semi-random patterning found on real twist barrels. Painting the whole barrel with resist or lacquer and scraping in the pattern doesn't work very well because the resist does not scrape away cleanly and it is difficult to follow the pattern properly all the way around the barrel. The best way I found to do it was to paint the pattern on with brushes learning to make hair thin lines as well as thicker ones. The pattern was painted on and then the muzzle was sealed with a cork and painted with resist. The breech was also painted with resist. Then the barrels were soaked in ferric chloride for 30 minutes. After that they were washed in water and then water mixed with baking soda. At that point the pattern is beautiful and authentic. You could just coat the barrel with cold bluing and card it off the high spots for a spectacular finish. I wanted a traditional British finish so I browned the barrels with Dixie's browning solution, which has a redder coppery tone than other solutions. I carded the barrels with 1500 grit paper wrapped around a block of wood to remove rust only from the high points. That created the strong tiger striping. After achieving a light coppery brown, I put the barrels in an oven and heated them to 490 degrees to darken the bronze tones. Then I simply let the barrels cool to a warm temp and buffed them with beeswax. My method is not new. There are a number of good makers who have done the same thing to fake a twist pattern. It is not hard to do but requires some practice and patience. I could easily pattern a full length barrel in a day. Most of all, you need to know what the patterns really looked like. I am fortunate to have handled several twist barreled pistols and I have a large library of photos. I modeled my barrels on a pair made by John Manton.
dave
Thank You for the reply Dave, great job on the finish. :hatsoff: :bow: :thumbsup:
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2005
- Messages
- 5,024
- Reaction score
- 9,998
Hi Makemsmoke,
The method is not expensive The material costs above that of the usual browning procedure are the resist and acid. That might cost $25 or so. To do a long barrel make a tube from PVC pipe and seal one end with an end cap. Pour in the acid, which can be reused,and dip the barrel. Put wire through the barrel tang bolt hole to use as a pull tab to lower and remove the barrel. It really is not hard to do this but it does take patience and a little practice. I attached a photo that shows the etching a little better so you can see how deep it is. Unfortunately, you cannot see some of the really fine lines in the pattern.
take care,
dave
The method is not expensive The material costs above that of the usual browning procedure are the resist and acid. That might cost $25 or so. To do a long barrel make a tube from PVC pipe and seal one end with an end cap. Pour in the acid, which can be reused,and dip the barrel. Put wire through the barrel tang bolt hole to use as a pull tab to lower and remove the barrel. It really is not hard to do this but it does take patience and a little practice. I attached a photo that shows the etching a little better so you can see how deep it is. Unfortunately, you cannot see some of the really fine lines in the pattern.
take care,
dave
Thank you Dave- looks about as deep as the vinegar etch depth -I would describe it as just deep enough that when you rub you fingers over it you can tell the differance...I'm willing to take a shot at this finish..any chance of a supply list...who-what-where?....I have a 58 cal gm 32" barrel with a factory finish that could use some attention.....Thanks in advance...Dan
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2005
- Messages
- 5,024
- Reaction score
- 9,998
You bet Dan,
Rio Grande sells resist (riogrande.com) but any jewelry supplier should have etching materials. If you do an internet search for jewelry etching supplies, you may find a supplier closer to you. The only issue with resist is that it has a flammable base and suppliers only ship it by ground. Radio Shack sells the acid (circuit board etchant) but if they don't have it ferric chloride is safe and easy to get. There are internet chemical suppliers that offer it. You could experiment with muriatic acid from your local hardware store. Just paint a small piece with resist and dip it in a glass baking dish with acid and time the response. It might go faster than ferric chloride. By the way, if you mix ferric chloride with a solution made from ferric nitrate crystals (also easily available) you basically have Wahkon Bay's aqua fortis stock stain. Also Dan, you might not have to use resist. You might try shellac or lacquer that is allowed to get a little thick and paint that on. Anything that will not flow too easily and resists acid will work. Another compound widely used is simply Johnson's acrylic floor wax called Klear sold in grocery stores. Good luck.
Rio Grande sells resist (riogrande.com) but any jewelry supplier should have etching materials. If you do an internet search for jewelry etching supplies, you may find a supplier closer to you. The only issue with resist is that it has a flammable base and suppliers only ship it by ground. Radio Shack sells the acid (circuit board etchant) but if they don't have it ferric chloride is safe and easy to get. There are internet chemical suppliers that offer it. You could experiment with muriatic acid from your local hardware store. Just paint a small piece with resist and dip it in a glass baking dish with acid and time the response. It might go faster than ferric chloride. By the way, if you mix ferric chloride with a solution made from ferric nitrate crystals (also easily available) you basically have Wahkon Bay's aqua fortis stock stain. Also Dan, you might not have to use resist. You might try shellac or lacquer that is allowed to get a little thick and paint that on. Anything that will not flow too easily and resists acid will work. Another compound widely used is simply Johnson's acrylic floor wax called Klear sold in grocery stores. Good luck.
Wish I could post pics!! :idunno: Used the vinegar and rope for 29 hours, then used Birchwood Caseys cold blue on top then buffed with oooo steel wool. All I can say is it looks AWESOME with the natural wood finish on the stock and all the brass furniture polished up! Thanks for the great idea!
TH
TH
Come on Man we gotta see it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
Oh well,sure would like to have seen it.
Vinegar rope finish over LMF rust brown
Barrel GM 32" 62 cal smooth bore jug choked converted to flint..new breach plug...this barrel had GM's helical repair on the nipple threads.
here's the barrel at start
5/16 cotton rope soaked over night in 5% vinegar
barrel wrapped in rope --will report back in 24 hours with results..
Barrel GM 32" 62 cal smooth bore jug choked converted to flint..new breach plug...this barrel had GM's helical repair on the nipple threads.
here's the barrel at start
5/16 cotton rope soaked over night in 5% vinegar
barrel wrapped in rope --will report back in 24 hours with results..
24 hours later.....
Here's the vinegar rope over LMF Rust Brown
top barrel is naval jelly then Vinegar rope
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bottom barrel is vinegar rope over LMF Rust Brown
12 hrs into the finish I unwrapped the muzzle end 3 " wiped the wet LMF rust off the barrel and rewraped it with rope..
there was a large difference in out come..
I am going to re wrap this barrel with rope and etch it the way it is now..
I like the contrast of a darker rope twist than what the rope over rust brown produced.
So in my eye I would recommend a rust brown knocked back and then the rope finish..
I would describe it as a more gray muted finish than the Naval Jelly rope finish.
Here's the vinegar rope over LMF Rust Brown
top barrel is naval jelly then Vinegar rope
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bottom barrel is vinegar rope over LMF Rust Brown
12 hrs into the finish I unwrapped the muzzle end 3 " wiped the wet LMF rust off the barrel and rewraped it with rope..
there was a large difference in out come..
I am going to re wrap this barrel with rope and etch it the way it is now..
I like the contrast of a darker rope twist than what the rope over rust brown produced.
So in my eye I would recommend a rust brown knocked back and then the rope finish..
I would describe it as a more gray muted finish than the Naval Jelly rope finish.
24 hours later...
the top barrel is a naval jelly then a vinegar rope wrap
bottom barrel rust browned then browning removed then vinegar rope finish.
the rust brown barrel has a flatter blueish gray look to it..more aged...I like them both..hope this helps..... Now my work is done...Dan
the top barrel is a naval jelly then a vinegar rope wrap
bottom barrel rust browned then browning removed then vinegar rope finish.
the rust brown barrel has a flatter blueish gray look to it..more aged...I like them both..hope this helps..... Now my work is done...Dan
Similar threads
