gary b
32 Cal.
has anybody ever used the sulfur free powder ?
and what are the pros and cons of this ?
and what are the pros and cons of this ?
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sulfur free powder
- Thread starter gary b
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I assume from your other thread asking about adjusting a flint, your asking here about using any of the substitute powders in a flintlock? They might have their place in a caplock but they aren't made to use in a flintlock. The only way to get reliable ignition in a flint lock would be to use at least 10 grains of real black powder first, then a load of sub powder ontop of that. Still use Real black powder to prime too.
paulvallandigham
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YOu are apparently asking about the substitute powders. NO?
If so, the cons include price, a much higher ignition temperature which makes them totally useless for flintlocks. The fact that once exposed to air, the powder begins to deteriorate, and lose its power is another negative. You have to use the stuff up the year you buy it, or it becomes so inconsistent that you cannot get good groups the next Fall.
If you order Black Powder by the case( 25 lbs.) you can get it still for about $12.00 per lbs. Haz Mat fees, and shipping included, shipped to your door. Good luck finding a substitute powder for anywhere near that kind of price. We hear of retailers asking more than $30.00 per can, and the cans don't hold a full pound of powder!
It also absorbs water from the air faster than does black powder, and requires modern solvents to clean it out of a gun.
Its a powder designed for those zip guns, with their plastic wrapped copper jacketed pistol bullets) That leaves plastic to be removed, again, by another different, and expensive solvent. If you use conicals, then you have lead deposits to remove in addition to the powder residue, and that requires a lead solvent, and a bore brush to clean the gun.
With Black Powder, and a Patched Round Ball, no lead touches the bore, so you don't need lead solvent. No plastic is used, so you don't need a different solvent to dissolve plastic. Water gets rid of the sulfur and the remaining charcoal, or carbon, and trace chemicals from the Potassium Nitrate with a little soap.
Oh, if you use them in a traditional sidelock percussion action rifle, you will need to buy more expensive #11 Magnum percussion caps, to insure ignition of the powder. The Standard #11 caps don't always work very well with these powders. The zip guns use all different kinds of primers, including Shotgun primers. All are more expensive to buy than are percussion caps.
Other than those observations, The NON-SULFUR powders are just fine. The slight odor of Sulfur dioxide that is evident when you first pour soap and water down the barrel is quickly disbursed, and is gone. Keep your nose away from the muzzle when pouring the water down the barrel and this odor doesn't even register on the map! If you use ammonia, or a cleaner like Windex with ammonia to clean the barrel at the range, or field, with a patch or two, the sulfur odor is gone, so that you can then do a more thorough cleaning when you get home. :surrender: :thumbsup:
If so, the cons include price, a much higher ignition temperature which makes them totally useless for flintlocks. The fact that once exposed to air, the powder begins to deteriorate, and lose its power is another negative. You have to use the stuff up the year you buy it, or it becomes so inconsistent that you cannot get good groups the next Fall.
If you order Black Powder by the case( 25 lbs.) you can get it still for about $12.00 per lbs. Haz Mat fees, and shipping included, shipped to your door. Good luck finding a substitute powder for anywhere near that kind of price. We hear of retailers asking more than $30.00 per can, and the cans don't hold a full pound of powder!
It also absorbs water from the air faster than does black powder, and requires modern solvents to clean it out of a gun.
Its a powder designed for those zip guns, with their plastic wrapped copper jacketed pistol bullets) That leaves plastic to be removed, again, by another different, and expensive solvent. If you use conicals, then you have lead deposits to remove in addition to the powder residue, and that requires a lead solvent, and a bore brush to clean the gun.
With Black Powder, and a Patched Round Ball, no lead touches the bore, so you don't need lead solvent. No plastic is used, so you don't need a different solvent to dissolve plastic. Water gets rid of the sulfur and the remaining charcoal, or carbon, and trace chemicals from the Potassium Nitrate with a little soap.
Oh, if you use them in a traditional sidelock percussion action rifle, you will need to buy more expensive #11 Magnum percussion caps, to insure ignition of the powder. The Standard #11 caps don't always work very well with these powders. The zip guns use all different kinds of primers, including Shotgun primers. All are more expensive to buy than are percussion caps.
Other than those observations, The NON-SULFUR powders are just fine. The slight odor of Sulfur dioxide that is evident when you first pour soap and water down the barrel is quickly disbursed, and is gone. Keep your nose away from the muzzle when pouring the water down the barrel and this odor doesn't even register on the map! If you use ammonia, or a cleaner like Windex with ammonia to clean the barrel at the range, or field, with a patch or two, the sulfur odor is gone, so that you can then do a more thorough cleaning when you get home. :surrender: :thumbsup:
no I am understanding of that, I was trying to understand paul in his statement about reference to non sulfur powders, was he referring to "pyrodex" with S and non S additive, or gunpowder with the same, at the end of his statement.
Seems to me that Paul was saying
"Other than those observations, which includes all of the reasons he lists giving the reasons the new non sulfur aren't well suited for use in almost all Traditional MuzzleloadersThe NON-SULFUR powders are just fine."
I'm sure Paul knows that the Pyrodex powders all have sulfur in them. This includes Pyrodex RS, Pyrodex P and Pyrodex Select as well as the various Pyrodex pellets.
For what it's worth, I was once given two pounds of the Non-Sulfur type powders for free.
The inconsistency, difficult ignition, and the unused powder turning into a hard, rock like, unusable lump after 8 months, :cursing: really irritated me.
I saw why the guy gave this powder to me for free.
Personally, I see no benefits and a host of problems with it.
"Other than those observations, which includes all of the reasons he lists giving the reasons the new non sulfur aren't well suited for use in almost all Traditional MuzzleloadersThe NON-SULFUR powders are just fine."
I'm sure Paul knows that the Pyrodex powders all have sulfur in them. This includes Pyrodex RS, Pyrodex P and Pyrodex Select as well as the various Pyrodex pellets.
For what it's worth, I was once given two pounds of the Non-Sulfur type powders for free.
The inconsistency, difficult ignition, and the unused powder turning into a hard, rock like, unusable lump after 8 months, :cursing: really irritated me.
I saw why the guy gave this powder to me for free.
Personally, I see no benefits and a host of problems with it.
paulvallandigham
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I guess you didn't read my post carefully.
NO, THERE IS NO BLACK POWDER that is made without Sulfur. If you understand the purpose of sulfur in Black Powder, you can understand why your question is --well-- silly. Without sulfur, the charcoal and Potassium Nitrate would burn so fast that pressures would be too much for these guns. Sulfur slows the burning rate, so that we describe it as burning "progressively" as the powder moves behind the projectile out the barrel.
Sulfur, and granule size are the two industry controls to determine which powder should be used in what length barrel. There was in earlier times, ONLY One granule size of powder- because most powder was being made for use in Cannons. Muskets were considered a tool of " annoyance" on a battlefield, much as archers with B&A were used before muskets gained popularity. They were large caliber, served with both undersized balls, and coarse powder. The same powder was used in both the barrel, and for priming the muskets.
Refinement of powder making and sizing for performance was an 18th century improvement. Remember that the overthrowing, and execution of Two British " kings" ( Charles I and Oliver Cromwell) took place in the 1600s{17th century}, and royal governments were very concerned about commoners having access to guns. Without a wide market, there simply was no reason to develop firearms technology further, and that included improving powder.
It was the demand for arming civilians in the New World that created the demand for powder, and improvements in powder. The King of England had no fear of civilians in N. America overthrowing his government, since he never left England. So, there was no royal resistance to arming Americans.
It in fact was much cheaper for the King to do so, than to pay a standing army to protect colonists from Indian attacks, and raids. The last thing George II needed was further expenses. He could even tax colonists on the powder he sent over to them to buy, and make a little money!
I know that Pyrodex does have sulfur, and I also know its impossible to light in a flintlock without a " starter charge" of black powder. Hogdon simply has added other chemical compounds. Unfortunately, in doing so, it has necesarily raised the flashpoint of the Pyrodex, too.
Unintended consequences?--or, maybe Not. :hmm:
NO, THERE IS NO BLACK POWDER that is made without Sulfur. If you understand the purpose of sulfur in Black Powder, you can understand why your question is --well-- silly. Without sulfur, the charcoal and Potassium Nitrate would burn so fast that pressures would be too much for these guns. Sulfur slows the burning rate, so that we describe it as burning "progressively" as the powder moves behind the projectile out the barrel.
Sulfur, and granule size are the two industry controls to determine which powder should be used in what length barrel. There was in earlier times, ONLY One granule size of powder- because most powder was being made for use in Cannons. Muskets were considered a tool of " annoyance" on a battlefield, much as archers with B&A were used before muskets gained popularity. They were large caliber, served with both undersized balls, and coarse powder. The same powder was used in both the barrel, and for priming the muskets.
Refinement of powder making and sizing for performance was an 18th century improvement. Remember that the overthrowing, and execution of Two British " kings" ( Charles I and Oliver Cromwell) took place in the 1600s{17th century}, and royal governments were very concerned about commoners having access to guns. Without a wide market, there simply was no reason to develop firearms technology further, and that included improving powder.
It was the demand for arming civilians in the New World that created the demand for powder, and improvements in powder. The King of England had no fear of civilians in N. America overthrowing his government, since he never left England. So, there was no royal resistance to arming Americans.
It in fact was much cheaper for the King to do so, than to pay a standing army to protect colonists from Indian attacks, and raids. The last thing George II needed was further expenses. He could even tax colonists on the powder he sent over to them to buy, and make a little money!
I know that Pyrodex does have sulfur, and I also know its impossible to light in a flintlock without a " starter charge" of black powder. Hogdon simply has added other chemical compounds. Unfortunately, in doing so, it has necesarily raised the flashpoint of the Pyrodex, too.
Unintended consequences?--or, maybe Not. :hmm:
The sulfer free powder that I used in the past was the "CLEARSHOT" brand. Its an absorbic acid base "vitamin C" and yes its still corrosive powder. I have tested it in percussion guns and the 45-70 cartridge. When compressed in the 45-70 case, over time it turned into a hard solid.
Yes it went bang every time, but real BP is still the winner. I still have two cans of CLEARSHOT in FFG just collecting dust.
Yes it went bang every time, but real BP is still the winner. I still have two cans of CLEARSHOT in FFG just collecting dust.
buttonbuck
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I think there is a lot of stigma associated with black powder being corrosive. When I started out in 1999 with a new renegade and the miracle solovents and pyrodex I managed put some minor pits in my renegade, then used clean shot or clear shot it clumped up and was inconsistent in its granular composition. I tired goex and though there is more residue wiping between shots with scraps of t shirts of long past makes cleaning good and easy. I will probably try some graff and sons sooner or later but will stick to GOEX It just works great for me and is made in the usa.
Rat Trapper
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Yes the subs do cost a little more. I have had real good luck with Triple Seven in a number of my rifles. In these rifles which I use for hunting I have continued to use Triple seven. the cost is not a big deal as I only use about one can of it a year if that. I vacum pack premeasured loads when I open the can for the first time and save those loads just for hunting. the rest of the can is used up on my private range. I used some of the vacum packed loads this fall in my Tc hawken rifles and the deer could not have been more dead had I used "real black powder". Those premeasured vacum packed loads had been sealed up for over a year prior to their use. I shot some groups with the remainder of the can and they were just as small as those the day the can was opened. What is left in the can will be shot up this summer and a new can opened. Current can went two hunting season just fine. Every deer shot at went to freezer. I also have two rifles which I only use Goex in. These are my Seneca and Cherokee rifles. TC used a non standard nipple in them and hot shot replacement nipples are not available for them. Since I have a life time supply of TC nipples for these two rifles I'm just using Goex in them. Does not matter which you use, you still have to clean the rifle. I know a lot of guys around here who are using American Pioneer powder. They swear by it. I got some given to me last month at one of the shops here. One can I was told had never been openned and the other one was. Free powder is good enough to plink with. I also have some of the American Pioneer 2F in premeasured 100 grain tubes. Just love those nice tubes for my own use too. Wish they would sell me 100 of those tubes.
When at public ranges I'm always looking to see if anyone threw any away.
When at public ranges I'm always looking to see if anyone threw any away.
Rat Trapper
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That is correct. Hodgdon suited Clean shot for making pellets, and the people who had the money in Clean shot, openned another company to continue. This all happened a number of years ago and if anyone has any clean shot powder it is old.
I have been told that Hodgdon has improved both Triple Seven and Pyrodex to allow for a longer shelf life. Last year Hodgdon told me over the phone that both have an indiffent shelf life. If anyone here has any more info on this please jump in. I have friends going to the BOW show (ATA) this week and I plan to ask them to check on this if there is anyone there from Hodgdon. Normally there are people at the ATA show with muzzle loading guns/stuff.
I have been told that Hodgdon has improved both Triple Seven and Pyrodex to allow for a longer shelf life. Last year Hodgdon told me over the phone that both have an indiffent shelf life. If anyone here has any more info on this please jump in. I have friends going to the BOW show (ATA) this week and I plan to ask them to check on this if there is anyone there from Hodgdon. Normally there are people at the ATA show with muzzle loading guns/stuff.
arcticap
54 Cal.
gary b said:
I only buy the fffg granulation of APP because the other granulations are larger than normal.
I also like using 777 fffg in my .36 bores because it produces higher velocity with less fouling.
gary b said:
The only "con" I can muster up about sulfur free powder is the smell, I like the smell of sulfured powder burning.
We have traditional muzzleloaders, traditional projectiles, etc. The sulfur adds the traditional smell to the equation, which (in my opinion) is one of the more pleasing aspects of muzzleloading.
Rat Trapper
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Regarding smell, I much perfer the smell of a fired shotgun shell which has a paper base wad. Since being a trapper I also skin skunks once in a while so the smell of black power isn't a problem either.
