scratch built

This is a term that gets thrown around quite a bit and seems to have a broad range of meaning. here's what my dictionary says:
Start from scratch - to begin from nothing with no advantage.
My personal opinion (and this is ONLY my opinion) is that "scratch built" is built ENTIRELY from raw materials. It differs from "hand built" in that power tools can be used in "scratch built" but "hand built" is made ENTIRELY from raw materials, ENTIRELY by hand, no power tools. To me, it would be nice to have set definitions for terms commonly used regarding gunmaking (there's another term that could use a clear definition).

Cody

 

[Roy]

Good point.
Personally I like to hear the word assemble more often. Example you assemble lock kits, or gun kits.

 

[MikeChapin]

...
My personal opinion (and this is ONLY my opinion) is that "scratch built" is built ENTIRELY from raw materials. It differs from "hand built" in that power tools can be used in "scratch built" but "hand built" is made ENTIRELY from raw materials, ENTIRELY by hand, no power tools. To me, it would be nice to have set definitions for terms commonly used regarding gunmaking (there's another term that could use a clear definition).

Cody

In my opinion it's pretty much semantics.

According to that definition, any gun that does not start with a pile of iron ore and a tree would be something else.

Since most people do not have access to a Bessimer mill and are not privy to a lumber mill, I think the definition could stand a little modification.

To go a little further, only a few people I know have the knowledge and skill to build a barrel or lock out of a chunk of steel.

My defintion of a "scratch" build is that someone gathered a stock blank, barrel, lock, trigger and furnature to build a rifle and then went ahead and built it.

Whether they used hand tools or power tools does not make a difference. One of the best rifle makers I know just started using a power plane to shape stocks. I still use shure-forms and rasps. Both of us are shaping the by hand using different tools. His method just goes a lot faster than mine. (gotta get one of those power planes )

Even the easiest kits take a little more than just assembly. Even though I've seen a few that were little more than that. Usually it takes fitting parts into the right configuration and finishing and shaping the wood into a fine functioning rifle where the look and functioning are optimal.

 

My defintion of a "scratch" build is that someone gathered a stock blank, barrel, lock, trigger and furnature to build a rifle and then went ahead and built it.

So then the only difference between "scratch built" and "kit built" is that in one, you choose your own parts and in the other, someone else chooses them?. Works for me. I realy don't care what the definition IS, would just like to see it fixed as something specific. So what would we call a rifle built without useing ANY manufactured parts?.

Cody

 

[Roy]

expensive. :grin:

 

[Metalshaper]

Cody,

I feel I can say I have and do build from scratch! :hmm:

The reason I say this, is because I've made a barrel. built my own lock/lock-works. fabricated every part from scrap steel/brass.. and have worked stocks from a plank and now am making some stock pieces with lumber I had milled from cut timber.< My Buddy Marlow, the same things>..My barrels, for right now and for convienence, are purchased. mainly because I haven't worked out all the details of 'working smarter,,not harder". In a mostly improvised shop..making a barrel is a very time consuming project..

I do own some basic hobby sized machinery. a baby 6 X 12 lathe, a small mill,that I fab'd together out of a bench top drill press, a small porta-band hacksaw that I salvaged, a grinder and a couple of sanding units. 9 out of 10 times,, its still a hand hacksaw, with chisels and files that I reach for when making the next part.

The only 'kits' I have are a New Orlean's Ace pistol,, that was a gift from my Buddy Pep.. and a flint tinder lighter project, that Tom Crooks sent me..

So based on that,, do I qualify as a scratch builder ?? or am I just dilusional :winking:

Respect Always
Metalshaper

< offerd with tongue in cheek! >

 

[Old40Rod]

Your points are interesting... as applied to "amateur" builders, I am always in awe of the firearms work people share here on the forum... it is the amount of work they put in and their skill in doing it I admire most. However, I know people who have put 100+ hours in on "kit" rifles and were quite proud of their accomplishments. It makes them feel good about themselves and the sport, and that is good enough for me :hatsoff: I wish I had the time, money and energy to start off building something by wandering around the woods looking for a suitable tree... :grin:

 

[MikeFromON]

I would say that "hand-built" means that you used your entire hand (fingers, thumb, palm, etc.) in the contruction but "scratch-built" would mean you used only your finger-nails to shape the wood and metal and fit it all together :haha: .

 

...
My personal opinion (and this is ONLY my opinion) is that "scratch built" is built ENTIRELY from raw materials. It differs from "hand built" in that power tools can be used in "scratch built" but "hand built" is made ENTIRELY from raw materials, ENTIRELY by hand, no power tools. To me, it would be nice to have set definitions for terms commonly used regarding gunmaking (there's another term that could use a clear definition).

Cody

According to that definition, any gun that does not start with a pile of iron ore and a tree would be something else.

Actually, that would be described as building a gun from scratch useing materials that were also made from scratch IMO. And for that to be accurate, you would NOT just cut down a tree. You would have to grow it from seed yourself :grin: .
So I guess here's where I'm going with this. If I build a gun useing a band sawn blank that has the barrel channel done and the RR groove and hole done for me but all other parts were purchased, and metalshaper builds the same style gun, but he starts with a band sawn blank and makes every part including all the screws himself, these are both considered "scratch built"?

Cody

 

[Roy]

Now your on the slippery slope of opinion. :v There are many builders that put together kits and there are an equal amount that start out with just a blank and purchased hardware, and on the other extreme builders that make and cast all of there own parts.

One thing is for sure it takes more than patience to build or assemble anything. I think its a fine line between all of those builders. I also think we do a fine job here of giving credit where credit is due and thats what really counts.

Words like "hand" or "scratch" can really be vague. Like stated before I prefer words like "made" and "assembled" And for what is in between can be left in a description.

 

[C_Laubach]

Cody,
I agree with you, here is another term to thicken the pot!
"Totally hand made using only 18th century practices":hatsoff:

Chris Laubach

 

[Packdog]

I hear and use the term Gunstocker a good bit rather than Gunsmith or Gunbuilder. I think it best describes those of up who assemble components.

 

[Roy]

good word :thumbsup:

 

[Roy]

most gunsmiths can't reproduce parts, only replace them.

 

[Zonie]

I think my wife's 5 Siamese Cats scratch unbuilt the living room couch. :grin:

 

[Roy]

I believe you. :grin:

 

[flashpanner]

Where is the line drawn? Does one have to build the tools that build the gun too? Does one have to make the files, the hammers, the rifling bench, the boring/reaming lathe as well? What about the grinding wheel used to sharpen the ax, the chisels, and other tools. No motors were around then, better get thet old foot treddle grinding wheel out. Do we abandon our artifical electical lighting? better lose that "modern" work holding vice as well.
There is a limit, maybe the old adage of "keeping with the spirit and intent" should be a starting guide.

 

Very, very, very few Gunsmiths of the 18th and 19th c. were gunsmiths by the standards discussed in this thread. Most were stockers as most of us are. They were buying the barrels and locks from Europe and buying wood blanks. There were places that made just hardware and sold it to gunsmiths by catalog in the 19th c. I don't think we're doing it much different than the old gunsmiths so why mess with the lingo? :hmm:

 

[rich pierce]

It's just words. They mean different things to different people.

The process is what's important for many of us. A kit gun is restricted in many ways. The parts are the same collection as used for a hundred or a thousand other guns made from the same kit. the general architecture is pre-determined. A kit can be "customized". It is not "custom" in my vocabulary, but no need to debate my vocabulary.

Much more thought and variation can be built into a gun built from a blank, with a unique parts assemblage. This is not always the case, especially if one is building a close copy of a gun everyone else makes (Haines, Marshall, etc).

 

[Roy]

So is it right when someone assembles a kit to the best of their abillity and says "I made this" what part did they make? Gets all into the hand built and scratch built doesn't it?

To break it down I assemble locks and I make locks, now what I can say is that "I made this lock from castings".

all in all it doesn't matter. Personal oppinion. :v