Results in on flexible bore light

[EC121]

You can try the canvas patch with the .530s, but good luck loading it in the field with the wooden rod on the gun. With the .526s it loads easy, and you could re-use the patches if desired. We ordered ten yards of the 100% cotton material from an awning supply company. It is about like the material in Carhart bibs only a bit heavier. Once washed and dried the weave shrinks and gets tighter.

 

[SDSmlf]

It's 9/16", which is basically .56 caliber, just right for this .54 barrel. Too big and it will tilt on the way down bore, end up laying sideways over the powder. Too small and it'll flutter down the bore and end up laying sideways or with enough open space around the edges that it doesn't provide much service

Hitting the perfect wad diameter can take some experimenting. I usually end up between .03” and .06” over bore diameter. In the fast twist 45s I use a .050” diameter felt wad under a paperpatched conical that’s almost a slip fit in the bore. The wad puckers up or dishes and rides right to the powder as a fairly tight fit. Ramrod will drive it home with no flipping problem.

I haven’t tried it or order from this company, but a while back a buddy suggested I try 10oz canvas from Big Duck Canvas for patch material (https://www.bigduckcanvas.com/canvas-fabric-wholesale-10oz/). May try some in the future as I work my way through the patch material I have. Kind of inherited quite a bit of cotton fabric a while back when my sisters unloaded my grandmother’s 1948 Kenmore rotary sewing machine on me after I believe they realized it was worth very little in running condition, let alone not working at all state it was in. Included quite a bit of vintage cotton material in various thicknesses. Turned out to be a treasure trove of black powder and gun cleaning supplies. Including two reams of 100% cotton 9# onion skin typewriter paper, my paperpatch material. About $100 a ream if you can find it. And after rewiring, adjusting and lubricating, I have a beast of a sewing machine. With the correct needle, easily handles multiple layers of vegetable tanned buckskin, webbing, or anything else I want to stitch up.

 

[hanshi]

FWIW, I have radius cut Rice barrels, .016" grooves, and square cut, .012" grooves. In both I use heavy canvas "drop cloth" material that I measure compressed at .023" to .024". It is fairly tight loading but is no problem even using the wood rod. With some lubes such as Hoppes #9 BP Lube, spit and others the loads go down easy-peasy. I use TOW mink oil for hunting which isn't as easy going down but can still use the wood rod. I just polished the muzzle crowns but still use a short starter. My fired patches can be reused.

 

[pamtnman]

In a moment I will reply to your very helpful posts here, thank you. Before that I have a germane post of my own.
Late this afternoon, in the heavily angled light of the fading sunset, and after a gentle rain earlier in the day that washed the fabric, I finally found several of yesterday's experimental tight-er patches. They stood out like beacons this evening, whereas last night, even with a spotlight, I could find nothing in the same location. And what a lesson they taught me.
On the left are two patches that were nested together under the ball, a pre-cut 0.010" cotton over a 0.018" pillow ticking, for a combined patch thickness of 0.028". Under them was a patch of pillow ticking placed over the powder, as a buffer. The shot on this was on paper, and not too far from the bullseye, but still not accurate. Cutting can be seen on both of these patches, as the gas gets by.
The two patches to the right are pillow ticking that were each coupled with pre-cut 0.015" cotton, for a combined patch thickness of 0.033", for one shot each. Look at those nice patches, they could almost be used over again. And the two shots they delivered were exactly to point of aim, perfect bullseyes, at 75 yards. No gas cutting. No blown up patch material. Perfect accuracy.
So what I learned is that "blown" patches are too thin. They are blown by the gases blowing past them. Anyone with blown patches needs to greatly increase the thickness of the patch or patch material they are using in their muzzleloader. Nothing to "read" or study here, if your gun produces blown patches just get thicker patching materials and experiment with layering them together and using them alone.
Forgive me if this is stating the obvious, but it was not obvious to me, and I could not find any definitive statement on it.

 

[pamtnman]

You can try the canvas patch with the .530s, but good luck loading it in the field with the wooden rod on the gun. With the .526s it loads easy, and you could re-use the patches if desired. We ordered ten yards of the 100% cotton material from an awning supply company. It is about like the material in Carhart bibs only a bit heavier. Once washed and dried the weave shrinks and gets tighter.

EC thanks for your advice on getting the canvas duck. This afternoon I purchased several strips of cotton duck material at a local Jo-Ann's Fabric store. Although the nice lady working there said all of the materials were the same thickness, I could feel that they were not. So I picked out three different cotton duck canvas bolts and had strips cut from each one, more than enough for experimenting. My micrometers and loading stuff are not here where I am, but after washing them in hot water and then putting them in the dryer, wow, what a difference. These canvas cloths are much thicker and much tighter weave than the pillow ticking. Just guessing by running them through my fingers and comparing them to patch materials of known thickness, these appear to run from 0.020" to 0.030" thick, which is right in the ballpark that you and SDS are talking about.
Loading them in the field under hunting conditions probably will be a fascinating experience. I will report back after shooting them tomorrow.

 

[pamtnman]

Hitting the perfect wad diameter can take some experimenting. I usually end up between .03” and .06” over bore diameter. In the fast twist 45s I use a .050” diameter felt wad under a paperpatched conical that’s almost a slip fit in the bore. The wad puckers up or dishes and rides right to the powder as a fairly tight fit. Ramrod will drive it home with no flipping problem.

I haven’t tried it or order from this company, but a while back a buddy suggested I try 10oz canvas from Big Duck Canvas for patch material (https://www.bigduckcanvas.com/canvas-fabric-wholesale-10oz/). May try some in the future as I work my way through the patch material I have. Kind of inherited quite a bit of cotton fabric a while back when my sisters unloaded my grandmother’s 1948 Kenmore rotary sewing machine on me after I believe they realized it was worth very little in running condition, let alone not working at all state it was in. Included quite a bit of vintage cotton material in various thicknesses. Turned out to be a treasure trove of black powder and gun cleaning supplies. Including two reams of 100% cotton 9# onion skin typewriter paper, my paperpatch material. About $100 a ream if you can find it. And after rewiring, adjusting and lubricating, I have a beast of a sewing machine. With the correct needle, easily handles multiple layers of vegetable tanned buckskin, webbing, or anything else I want to stitch up.

Great story, SDS! Funny how black powder shooters find the most useless, obsolete, old stuff "priceless." That 9# paper is a very useful material for paper patched bullets. 16# typewriter paper is what I usually use, and two wraps increases the bullet diameter by a perfect 0.010", but it is necessary to have on hand anything (like 9#) that can help get a new round to operate the way it did back in the 1780s or the 1880s.
You have really been a big help here, and I thank you so very much. This whole process started as a quest to find out what was going on in the barrel, and what I learned is that something very small was going on in the barrel, but that it was easily solved by simply experimenting with patch thickness. So easy, whoda thunk it?!
Thanks again, and I will post the results of these efforts as they progress. The new canvas patches will be shot tomorrow.

 

[pamtnman]

FWIW, I have radius cut Rice barrels, .016" grooves, and square cut, .012" grooves. In both I use heavy canvas "drop cloth" material that I measure compressed at .023" to .024". It is fairly tight loading but is no problem even using the wood rod. With some lubes such as Hoppes #9 BP Lube, spit and others the loads go down easy-peasy. I use TOW mink oil for hunting which isn't as easy going down but can still use the wood rod. I just polished the muzzle crowns but still use a short starter. My fired patches can be reused.

Thanks, Hanshi. That is very useful information to have. I have never been a fast learner. Always had to study things at length to my own satisfaction before I felt settled on a path or a conclusion. I suppose if I had read somewhere that when you get blown patches, get thicker material, it would have been a faster process. It took what, three or four guys here chipping in and holding my hand for two days, to get there?
But now I am there, and I think I understand patching like I did not understand it before. I never had this experience before, everything worked great with the materials I had easily at hand, so the need to experiment was not previously thrust upon me.

 

[ADK Bigfoot]

A question about your breech plug damage. How can a brass cleaning jag damage a steel breech plug? Are you using a steel jag? I also have a couple of flint locks with drill/tap marks on the breech face from installing a liner; I did one, the maker did another. But they always come clean and shiny after each cleaning.

I recently found a heavy (80-85 grain) charge of FFFg in a .50 caliber rifle was "stressing" my patches. Not as bad as yours, but "ragged." I added a felt wad under the patched round ball and found two results: the patches are now "normal" and my velocity and extreme spreads are VERY consistent. I am also using bear oil and find it to be very consistent.

I hope you find the answers you seek. Having a favorite rifle "go south" is a heartbreaker.

ADK Bigfoot

 

[pamtnman]

A question about your breech plug damage. How can a brass cleaning jag damage a steel breech plug? Are you using a steel jag? I also have a couple of flint locks with drill/tap marks on the breech face from installing a liner; I did one, the maker did another. But they always come clean and shiny after each cleaning.

I recently found a heavy (80-85 grain) charge of FFFg in a .50 caliber rifle was "stressing" my patches. Not as bad as yours, but "ragged." I added a felt wad under the patched round ball and found two results: the patches are now "normal" and my velocity and extreme spreads are VERY consistent. I am also using bear oil and find it to be very consistent.

I hope you find the answers you seek. Having a favorite rifle "go south" is a heartbreaker.

ADK Bigfoot

Good questions. The breech plug was not damaged by mechanical force, but as you can see in the first photos, it appears that mild but repeated rust left it rough. That seems to have polished out from the finishing pad. In the first two sets of pictures, scratches in the lands are visible, and I attribute them to possibly/probably being from a bullet pulling jag that has a steel screw in it. It is plausible that as I blindly stabbed about at the end of my effort, the steel screw end might have hit the lands and left long scratches. I don't know what else could have done it. I am one of those guys who almost enjoys taking responsibility for the goofs he makes. I wear them as a badge of honor, and drink another beer. Want a beer?
Thanks for the info about the felt patch/wad over the powder. That is up next here, just waiting on the 9/16" steel arch punch to arrive. Your comment and others give me some hope that one way or another I will be able to tame this gun not just at the shooting bench, but in the field.
And about that bear oil, wow, that is amazing stuff. Said to have been a close substitute for whale oil. If I can help it, I will only use bear oil going forward.