powderhorn staples

[Black Hand]

Thanks for the info.

 

[Black Hand]

Time is money. There is NO finesse required to drill a wire diameter hole- rather than a "pilot hole" we might use today-- and quickly clinch the nail ends over. Time was Money back then, as it is now. And this would have been a job for an unskilled "apprentice", rather than for a master woodworker. ( All kinds of small products were made in slack periods to keep the shop bringing in income, so that the master could afford to pay the apprentices. )

I would have to disagree with the "time is money point". That may be the case today with the 'more product is more money, so lets make it as cheaply and quickly as possible', but I doubt it played much a factor "back in the day". As an example, look at the ornamentation that came with guns. Today, any carving will cost you extra, but in the period it was part of the product....

 

[David W.]

It was brought up earlier about twisted nails. I would like to know if originals used them. I know they were most likely square.

I hope my question is not answered with hostility!

 

[paulvallandigham]

With all hand-made work, Time is money. I can assure you that carving on stocks as "Part of the price" was factored into what the final price.

You can see this later when machinery became involved in producing cheaper barrels and parts, and gun makers could lower their prices on guns, after the turn of the 19th century.

It actually takes less time to drill holes completely through the base plug, place the staple into the holes, and clinch the ends on the inside, than it does to drill careful pilot holes, and carefully hammer the staples into the holes. When you consider how many hundreds of nails or staples it takes to build a wooden boat- even a canoe- clinching nails was a skill quickly learned, and done without a lot of conscious effort, after only a few days of work. With time, a worker simply became more efficient, and faster, without even thinking about what movements were involved to clinch a nail.

All that would be needed to clinch staples in a base plug was some kind of "spacer" to put between the staple's two pins, to leave the right amount of gap under the staple to fit a leather or woven strap. :hmm:

With a drill press available today, with a depth stop, it would be as fast, or faster, to drill the pilot hole and simply pound the staple into the two holes. No skill needed. :surrender: :thumbsup:

 

[canepole]

I've read your reply to Black Hand with great interest.That is the kind of reply I had hoped for originally.Thank you for your interest in the subject, and have a great day.

 

[canepole]

Thanks to you also, for your insight and knowledge.I guess this illustrates once again that there is no one way to do things.

 

[Black Hand]

With all hand-made work, Time is money. I can assure you that carving on stocks as "Part of the price" was factored into what the final price.

You can see this later when machinery became involved in producing cheaper barrels and parts, and gun makers could lower their prices on guns, after the turn of the 19th century.

It actually takes less time to drill holes completely through the base plug, place the staple into the holes, and clinch the ends on the inside, than it does to drill careful pilot holes, and carefully hammer the staples into the holes. When you consider how many hundreds of nails or staples it takes to build a wooden boat- even a canoe- clinching nails was a skill quickly learned, and done without a lot of conscious effort, after only a few days of work. With time, a worker simply became more efficient, and faster, without even thinking about what movements were involved to clinch a nail.

All that would be needed to clinch staples in a base plug was some kind of "spacer" to put between the staple's two pins, to leave the right amount of gap under the staple to fit a leather or woven strap. :hmm:

With a drill press available today, with a depth stop, it would be as fast, or faster, to drill the pilot hole and simply pound the staple into the two holes. No skill needed. :surrender: :thumbsup:

We're just going to have to disagree.

In the time it would take just to set up the method you describe, I could make the staple from wire, drill my pilot holes and install the staple...

 

[tg]

"Someone skilled in clinching nails would not think twice about running a wire "staple" through the base plug of a powder horn, and turning or "clinching" the staple over into the back side of the plug"

I do not know if we are trying to look at this from a historical viewpoint but if so the above is pure speculation and offers nothing of historical value, one would need written descriptions of clinching mails in the process of making horns or surviving horns that are considered original by several eliable sources that have clinched nails though unpopular with some who prefer to guess based on wide scope of various usages of any particular technique, it is how tany of the sciences are approached be it hiostory of any other field, and the speculative view does fit into the "they woulda if they coulda" way of trying to understand history and is not accepted by any reputable sources it is just to vague and violates the prime directive of not puting ourselves in their poistion and trying to "figure out" what they would have done based on their technological/mechanical capabilities of the time real evidence is a much better and also the accepted way of determining what was or was not done, lacking any we study anything closely related and look to the NEED as much or more than the ability to do something, I do not think any of todays well studied horn makers would consider it a requirement to use long staples that needed clinched, as mentioned, this will loosen quicker and allow moisture to enter, at any rate we have another highly speculative idea that should be studied very closely if history is the goal, if not any method that works will suffice.If some originals are found to be credible it would be a viable option but the time frame would also be a factor as it would limit the time the practice was used by the nature of of such a study is done, one really needs the original examples over the speculative type posting to maintain credibility.This post is just in order not aimed at Black hand

 

As an example, look at the ornamentation that came with guns. Today, any carving will cost you extra, but in the period it was part of the product....

A you trying to tell people that a plain rifle stock cost the same as an ornately carved stock? That people did not charge for their time? Are you making this up as you go? :haha:

 

[Black Hand]

As an example, look at the ornamentation that came with guns. Today, any carving will cost you extra, but in the period it was part of the product....

A you trying to tell people that a plain rifle stock cost the same as an ornately carved stock? That people did not charge for their time? Are you making this up as you go? :haha:

What I am saying is that some carving was included as part of the basic package. And then there were the high-end guns that only the well-to-do could afford....

 

[Twice boom]

I don’t know what the argument is all about. It’s not like these things were made in a assembly line ,like the model T Ford. And I am sure no one on this Gods Green Earth has seen all the styles of horns in existence.

Who in heck knows what any of us would have come up with sitting around the fire place on a cold winters night. ???????

Twice

 

[LaBonte]

I don’t know what the argument is all about. It’s not like these things were made in a assembly line ,like the model T Ford. And I am sure no one on this Gods Green Earth has seen all the styles of horns in existence.

Who in heck knows what any of us would have come up with sitting around the fire place on a cold winters night. ???????

Twice

Actually the majority of old horns, especially during the 18the and early 19th centuries. were in fact made in factories by professional horners (most map horns for instance) and not by some guy sitting around a fireplace. Yes there are and were home made horns, but most were factory made since cows from which horns were gotten were not particularly plentiful on the frontier until much later.
As for not seeing them all - nope - but there are folks like Roland Cadle, Wallace Gusler, and others who have looked at hundreds of those horns still in existence. For those who prefer to follow the old ways as close as possible we depend at least to a point on the evidence that does exist rather than on supposition - on the other hand that "way" is not for everyone and those who choose to do otherwise are free to do so......

 

[paulvallandigham]

Can you drill those pilot holes accurately with an hand held, Old-fashion, human-powered, hand drill? Without a depth stop? We didn't have drill presses, nor any electrically powered tools until the last quarter of the 19th century. Also, the kind of drill bits we now use with the full length double flutes just didn't exist back then.

I am not busting your chops, and I don't want to argue about this. I spent enough time finding out what other kinds of woodworker tools were used when I investigated inventories of estates, and found all kinds of tools I would not have thought belonged in a farm estate here in the mid-west. I have paid attention to exhibits of early 19th century tools, and late 18th century tools ( mostly to find out what the heck something I have IS??) and learned much about tools, and tool making for those periods. I have seen clinching tools where the owners, or curators had no clue what it was, and often had it misidentified.

And, I have had a fascination with wooden boat building as long as I can remember. I have more books in my library on wooden boat building, than I have on knife-making, and knife-sharpening. Tools that you expect to find in boat building shops on our coasts are routinely also found inland in the inventories of carpenter shops, from that early period.

We obviously have different experiences, and that is what makes these posts more interesting to read and discuss. I can agree to " disagree" on this. :grin: :thumbsup: :hatsoff:

Oh, for those readers who have never seen what a clinched nail or staple looks like, your ordinary"Swingline" brand stapler has a Plate into which the two ends of the staple are driven and turned. Most don't know that you can push up on that plate from under the bottom of the stapler, and rotate the plate 180 degrees, so that a different "anvil" is now under those wires. If you use that rear "anvil," the wires are bent OUTWARDS, and not inward.

That is the closest a modern staple looks to what a clinched nail looks like. :hmm: :hmm: :thumbsup:

 

[Twice boom]

Oh? No one set the ground rules for me to know that we are talking about the MAJORITY . You make that sound as though the majority is the absolute word in anything PC..
So you do not think any horns were made by the warmth of the fire place. All the folk just ran out and bought theirs from the local store,eh.? See how silly it sounds when we try to twist words to mean something as none realistic as you saying “NO they were not made by the fire place .
Of all those horns viewed by the afore mentioned Gentlemen ,where they all made exactly the same, from like materials, same styles too ..
Just asking, because I’m having a real hard time in the matter of fact fashion you guys speaks with about this mythological thing called PC/HC when in fact you yourself have not see all that existed . Such a trivial thing to be arguing about ,whether the staples were clinched or driven part way or if wax was used to seal the staples holes.
.
Twice.

 

[tg]

The labor factor value, cost,compared to parts was much different than it is today, certain levels of carving were expected as a part of the package of the style of the time.Blackhand is not making it up as he goes he actually does research on the whole gun making industry of the time and has a firm grap of the way it was done and the value system that was in place as far as labore was concerned it was adifferent world than what we know of today, and no a basic gun with the basic incise molding, carving behind the tang/cheekpiece abd often at the termimation of the mouldings on the forestock, would not cost the same as a gun like Lenk shows in his book which is mostly European high art flintlocks, but this was never implied.

 

[LaBonte]

So you do not think any horns were made by the warmth of the fire place.
Reread my post I said - I never said none: "Yes there are and were home made horns, but most were factory made since cows from which horns were gotten were not particularly plentiful on the frontier until much later. Without the raw materials it is tough to make something...."

All the folk just ran out and bought theirs from the local store,eh.?
I never said or implied all, but yes most did and when we are discussing history it is based on what is documented fact and not on apparently uninformed or ill informed supposition

See how silly it sounds when we try to twist words to mean something as none realistic as you saying “NO they were not made by the fire place.
Yes it is silly when you take only part of what I said and take that out of context - again re-read my post I NEVER said none were - you interpreted it as such

Of all those horns viewed by the afore mentioned Gentlemen ,where they all made exactly the same, from like materials, same styles too .
of course not, but that does not deny the fact that MOST yes again MOST original horns that we have info on were not homebuilt anymore than most guns or knives of all types were not home built, but rather were bought or traded for. Read the actual history and you will see what I am talking about.

Just asking, because I’m having a real hard time in the matter of fact fashion you guys speaks with about this mythological thing called PC/HC when in fact you yourself have not see all that existed .
No no one of us have seen it all and never will, but speaking for myself I have seen and examined lots of original artifacts (museums, private collections, photos, etc from all over the world - it is not only my passion but my business as well) I have and continue to do the reading in depth that is necessary to understand in a factual manner what is known history and not supposition, so my statements are not just "matter of fact", but rather based on years (50 plus in my case) of studying the subject in depth and understanding the reality of what history was - in this case the tangible facts of the real material culture as we currently know it and not supposition based on something intangible - and yes our knowledge base is constantly growing and at times changes as new evidence emerges, but that takes constant research as well s understanding the context. And yes even after they do the studies the GOOD researchers allow for "possibilities" of things not documented, but until that documentation occurs it just like in a court of law - it's the solid evidence that counts for those interested in such - and no not everyone is interested and that's fine.

Such a trivial thing to be arguing about ,whether the staples were clinched or driven part way or if wax was used to seal the staples holes.
trivial to you perhaps but not too others of us who find the details interesting -and so far I just see a discussion with disagreements going on not an argument of any kind.

and to repeat my final words from above...
"For those who prefer to follow the old ways as close as possible, we depend at least to a point on the evidence that does exist rather than on supposition - on the other hand that "way" is not for everyone and those who choose to do otherwise are free to do so......" i.e. I expect NO ONE else to follow my "way" or will ever try to force one along MY chosen path nor will I offer any criticism whatsoever for those who choose differently.......
but I do like to share the factual knowledge I've gained with others that may so be interested and when I see an error in facts, such as Black Hands statement above, I will RESPECTFULLY point it out - and in this case he was gentleman enough to thank me and without rancor for my sharing with him, rather than offering up a rant......
but the whole issue has become a point of such contention on this particular forum that I just may quit posting except in rare cases, because it is becoming more and more plainly a waste of my time due to certain "Anti PCer's" who interject their opinions no matter when or what is being discussed.......

hasta luego - I have a sheath and pouch to finish......

 

[Twice boom]

Of all those horns viewed by the afore mentioned Gentlemen ,where they all made exactly the same, from like materials, same styles too .

"of course not, but that does not deny the fact that MOST yes again MOST original horns that we have info on were not homebuilt anymore than most guns or knives of all types were not home built, but rather were bought or traded for. Read the actual history and you will see what I am talking about."


I can read all the History in the world but it will not change my opinion nor will it dispute that some farmer or back woodsman made his own black powder horn. You said it yourself that not all that were examined where factory made . MOST does not equate to all. My point for even taking time to respond to matters that do not hold interest to me is because you and others embrace one part of the history and dismiss the other part of it with such a matter affect zeal .

It's not me that is running you off the board, more like failing to realize the predictable situations you chose to put yourself in. In other words you and few others continue to paint yourselves in a corner on such trivial matters as the staple on a powder horn.

Have a good one ,I have to run now , history lesson awaits me.
Twice.

 

[Zonie]

IMO, "I can read all the History in the world but it will not change my opinion..." is one of the stranger things I've read for a man who is willing to learn about things to say. :hmm:

 

[Twice boom]

IMO, "I can read all the History in the world but it will not change my opinion..." is one of the stranger things I've read for a man who is willing to learn about things to say. :hmm:

I agree it does sound strange. Not though ,if you restrict what I said to horns.

Are you too of the opinion the farmer and the back woods man did not make their own horn, and if they did which I think you'll agree, they also made them differently from one another. That's the part of my Opinion that can not be changed.

And yes I do want to learn ,but at the same time I do not want to pigeon hole myself in to thinking the people of old where not creative individuals even though what they made may not be classified as in the Majority group.
Hope this gives you a little clearer view of my thinking.
Twice.
..

 

[Capt. Jas.]

I love the part about posting on threads whose topics are not of interest. On any other website that would be trolling. Of course that stuff can easily be edited out by moderators.