Leather or lead for flint

[coloradoclyde]

Leather...

Lead works in a pinch but loosens after a shot or two....

 

[Larry Pletcher]

I have always wanted to know if one or the other produced better sparks. The link below shows the results.

lead/leather test

Regards,
Pletch

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Well for a Bess, lead all the way. The same for any of the muskets with the large locks with long "throws" (distance the edge of the flint travels before impact on the frizzen). Never had a real problem with loose flints BUT the "lead" is actually an odd shape that not only covers the flint from top, around the butt, and the bottom, but folds over the sides. You must also leave a portion of the flint butt open to rest against the cock screw. The slow movement of the lock action be it Pedersoli or be it Japanese or India origin, the extra weight helps.

Any of the locks that are "rifle" or "fowler" locks..., leather, hands down. In fact I think Chambers warns customers not to use lead to hold the flint. As the article that was linked found, with the better locks there really is no difference, and that is true, but with the big musket locks, at least for the 25 years that I've been shooting them..., a lead wrap.

OH ONE MORE THING for the large musket locks. Some don't have the best geometry. One can improve that a bit if the lock is devouring flints, by not only wrapping in lead, but you take a pair of shears..., and cut an extra strip of lead about the length and width and thickness of a small wooden match stick, and place that in the cock jaws, under the butt of the lead wrapped musket flint, and then tighten. This puts a tiny bit more lead under the flint butt, raising it upward and gives you a few degrees of extra downward cant at the edge of the flint....sometimes it really does the trick.
:wink:

LD

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

Dave,
Thanks for the nice reply, but "lead" does not work for me. I had nothing but trouble using the lead that came with the lock. It had the appearance of being adequate, but the rock came loose. Leather is the only way for me. Here again we muzzleloaders all have our ways, especially if they work.
Flintlocklar :wink:

 

[robinghewitt]

If your main spring is getting old and tired or you frizzen face is wearing through and catching the flint, then the extra punch you get from the weight of the lead can keep you going for a while. Any port in a storm but must be something that cannot hold a spark :hatsoff:

 

[thomas]

All flintlock guns I've got from Pedersoli had lead holding the flint. Seems to work ok for me.

 

[satwel]

Leather is better than lead in many ways. I tried lead once, to see if it performed better, and quickly changed back to leather.

 

[Cruzatte]

Leather. I tried lead once upon a time, too. And I had the same exact experience. The flint kept working loose. It seemed I could never tighten the cock jaw screw down tight enough for very long. I went back to leather and never looked back.

 

[Stophel]

I really tried to make lead work before, but it just wasn't gonna happen, no matter what I did. Frankly, I have a hard time believing that it works for anyone with a normal "rifle size" lock.

Now, for a big musket lock with REAL good, sharp, big, raised teeth in the jaws to bite into the flint wrap, lead may (or may not... I don't know) be OK. But a modern rifle lock with little or no gripping teeth... no way.

 

[MSW]

I'd recommend trying each and see which one works best for you.

I have lead in some and leather in others, which supports my contrarian position, I think

whichever you come down to, Make Good Smoke

 

[Artificer]

I really tried to make lead work before, but it just wasn't gonna happen, no matter what I did. Frankly, I have a hard time believing that it works for anyone with a normal "rifle size" lock.

Now, for a big musket lock with REAL good, sharp, big, raised teeth in the jaws to bite into the flint wrap, lead may (or may not... I don't know) be OK. But a modern rifle lock with little or no gripping teeth... no way.

I could never get lead to work for me with a Siler lock on a rifle hand built in the early 70's, nor on a .69 cal. NA "Charleville" Pistol either. Both my circa 1974 Pedersoli Brown Bess Carbine and my circa early 2,000's Pedersoli Short Land Pattern Musket didn't like lead, either. Lead was a disaster in my circa 1978 NA Charleville Musket.

The only large Military Locks I personally know of where lead wraps worked at least OK to well were in Miroku Bess's.

I do think you are onto something about most modern gun locks not having the big teeth in the top jaws and therefore lead not working in them.

Gus

 

[Stophel]

I would just about bet that that was the key to getting lead to work. Teeth that can bite into the lead and hold it still.

 

[stubshaft]

I have some 1/32" sheet lead that works fine in my large Siler and Durs Egg. For my 1816 Harpers Ferry I can use 1/16" lead. Since I ran out of Pierce flints I have been using Neolithics which come with ground tops and bottoms.

 

[Artificer]

I would just about bet that that was the key to getting lead to work. Teeth that can bite into the lead and hold it still.

I have to sheepishly admit that was something I never noticed on original flint lock top jaws, until I had to make a replacement Top Jaw for a Miroku Bess for one of our Reenactment Group Member's Musket.

Since the only top jaw I could easily and quickly get was a cast one for a P1730 to P1742 Musket was WAY too large for that lock, I looked up top jaw sizes/styles in "The Brown Bess" by Goldstein and Mowbray. I had already figured out the hole n the top jaw had to be at an angle, something else I had never really thought about before, but that book helped me grind/file the too large top jaw down to size. What really surprised me was how BIG those teeth were on so many of the original Bess's shown in the book. Fortunately I already had what we call a "stippling tool" or special chisel to make some pretty big teeth on the repro top jaw. I thought at the time that perhaps the reason for those BIG teeth was for using lead wraps, but I wasn't sure.

Gus

 

[curator]

Larry,

The reason that lead-wrapped flints become loose is they are not tightened properly to begin with. Lead wrap often will not work as intended when the cock-jaw screw does not have a transverse hole drilled in it and depend's on a screw driver to tighten. A screw driver will not have sufficient torque to tighten it correctly. Also, when using lead, the jaw-screw is first tightened, then the lock dry fired a couple of times to "seat" the lead into the cock jaws, then re-tightened. A hardened pin punch through the cock-jaw screw hole will allow one to tighten the screw sufficiently so the flint is held very securely until it needs to be moved forward due to wear. Good tip by Loyalist Dave about using lead shims to adjust the flint's angle. Shims can also be used behind a short flint.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Leather. I tried lead once upon a time, too. And I had the same exact experience. The flint kept working loose. It seemed I could never tighten the cock jaw screw down tight enough for very long. I went back to leather and never looked back.

Ditto. Same experience. Leather only here.

 

[RAEDWALD]

I have never seen (happy to be corrected) any reference to military issues or stores of leather for flints.

The military virtue of lead is that it comes issued in the form of large round balls.....

The mass of lead flint wrapping may be one reason for the large over strong mainsprings in military muskets.

I see lead wrapping as being a part of the whole military musket weapon system. Sporting flint guns are lighter built and the lighter leather wrap complements this.

I have wrapped spare flints in lead for my musket and squashed the in a vice to flatten the top and bottom and form the lead to the flint contours. Then they are an easy fit when swapping flints and are easier to secure.

 

[Sunkmanitu Tanka]

For my flintlock, I use leather wraps.
I always have a few spare flints with the wrap tied on with a thread or the wrap simply glued on with a small dab of glue ... No problems with cold fingers and the flints are very quickly changed.

 

[Artificer]

I have never seen (happy to be corrected) any reference to military issues or stores of leather for flints.

The military virtue of lead is that it comes issued in the form of large round balls.....

The mass of lead flint wrapping may be one reason for the large over strong mainsprings in military muskets.

I see lead wrapping as being a part of the whole military musket weapon system. Sporting flint guns are lighter built and the lighter leather wrap complements this.

I have wrapped spare flints in lead for my musket and squashed the in a vice to flatten the top and bottom and form the lead to the flint contours. Then they are an easy fit when swapping flints and are easier to secure.

British Ordnance did a thorough job of providing the supplies that British Soldiers would need world wide to fire their muskets. I would suggest there is no better evidence of this than the fact the Ordnance Department purchased and issued special "Cartridge Paper" for the troops to make their own cartridges world wide, in a time when paper varied widely in thickness, durability and suitability for Cartridge Paper. I have found documentation of that as far back as the FIW, though they were probably doing it much earlier.

I have never researched whether British Soldiers used leather for their flint wraps. Of course, until I figured out it would have been a requirement that British Ordnance needed to ensure the proper paper was available to make cartridges, I never ran across much information on that. However after I figured it out, finding the information on British Ordnance contracting for, buying and issuing special Cartridge Paper was not terribly difficult to find.

Complete cartridges were available from British Ordnance, but only a few cartridges per Soldier were issued every year in peace time. We know British Ordnance issued Molds to the Regiments to cast their own balls and with the Cartridge Paper provided, the Regiments made most of their own Cartridges under the watchful eyes of the Artillery Officers and Artillery/Artificer NCO's. That would also mean British Ordnance also issued lead for the balls, but have to admit I have never researched in what form the lead was made available. British Ordnance could have issued some of the lead in the form of sheet lead to be cut up for flint wraps OR like the molds they issued to cast balls, perhaps molds were issued to cast the flint wraps as well? Sounds like an interesting thing to research.....

The very large "teeth" on the Cock and Top jaw of Brown Bess Muskets, were no doubt for use with Leaden Flint Wraps to help secure them.

The "over strong mainsprings" and overall robustness of Military Locks, ensured the parts did not break as often and especially not on the battlefield. I'm sure those mainsprings also helped with the weight of the lead wraps, but I would suggest they were even more important to get the poorly shaped "Gunspall" type flints, the British Army used primarily until 1775, to give good sparks for each firing.

Between wars with France during much of the 18th century, British Ordnance Department actually purchased French Gun Flints. This because the French knew how to make the superior shaped flints with "chisel" shaped edges front and back and fairly flat tops and bottoms. English flint knappers did not know how to do that and could only make the "V" shaped Gunspall Flints.

However, somehow the secret of making the French style flints got out because British Ordnance purchased 200,000 of the then "New" shaped flints in 1775 from English Flint knappers, that were the same shape as the French had been making for decades by that time. British Ordnance purchased 500,000 the next year and into the millions each year thereafter during the AWI. This according to Bailey.

Gus

 

[Hairy Clipper]

More than a dozen years ago my brother gifted me his John Bergmann built .32 caliber longrifle and I can remember him shooting this gun years ago and it had lead around the flint. When he gifted it to me it had leather wrapped around the flint. I suspect he made the change for a reason and knowing how he liked his tools to work I think I will keep the leather intact.