India Made Doglock ?

[rickystl]

Hello All. And Happy Easter.
While at the Antique Arms Show in Baltimore this month I bought this VERY cheap. The seller thought it originally belonged to a re-enactor who had lost interest, and was left in an uncared for condition. There is spots of rust around the lock and breech area as well as a coat of red rust in the bore. The barrel is 42" long and is right at .62 smoothbore.
I'm confident this is a India made gun. But the mystery is the lock. I've never seen this lock style mounted to any India made gun. The hammer, pan, and frizzen seem a crude copy of a Siler lock.
The tumbler does have a half-cock notch, and the hammer rests on the top edge of the lock plate as a typical flintlock. So the dog safety catch and the external hammer stop were just added for looks. Also, a lock for this gun's profile/period would not have a pan to frizzen arm like this one.I'm sure when I take the lock off and inspect the internals it will give me some more answers.
Meantime, have any of you ever seen this style of make shift lock on any of the India made guns ?
Thanks for any help. I'll post photos of the lock and mortise by tomorrow. Here are a bunch of pics..

Rick

 

[okawbow]

Don’t think that is an India made gun. Wood looks like American walnut. Screws look like commercial made. Haven’t seen a wedding band on an India gun.

 

[Silky921]

I've seen them from the India makers before. I think they call it a fishtail fowler from the 1650s with an early English doglock.

I was looking to get one at one point because they're so ugly that they're kind of cool looking.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Looks like a Leonard Day Dog Lock Musket.

India made guns should have proof marks. US made guns won't have proof marks.

 

[rickystl]

OK. Good points. I am not good at identifying wood. If it is American walnut - that's good.
And the India made barrels lack wedding bands ? That is also good news. I can't find any marks on the barrel, but will eventually take it off the stock to clean. So I can check under the bottom. Thanks for your help. Two good points. I hope that's true about the wood. I'll have someone look at the wood that knows more than I do.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

I've seen photos of the current offerings of these early muskets from one or two of the India manufacturers. While the stocks look similar, the locks are completely different. They copy the one Leonard Day uses on his guns, which is an English Jacobian style lock which would be correct for the period. Also, Leonard Day uses 41" long barrels. This one measures right at 42".

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Hi Mike.

The Leonard Day guns look very different. See below.

I'm hoping the inside of the lock will tell me more.
And maybe some mark on the bottom of the barrel.

Sure is a mystery at the moment.

Rick

 

[Loyalist Dave]

India made guns should have proof marks.

Nope, India origin barrels are not proofed before leaving India.

I'm thinking it was a much older attempt to make a dog lock-looking musket with perhaps an American barrel added to replace a non-firing barrel, hence the wedding bands.


LD

 

[rickystl]

OK. Lock is off the gun. Actually, the lock was a nice, snug fit in the mortise. Lock plate bolts are three, incorrect hardware store type domed screws with threads the entire length of the screw. LOL
The quality of the lock's internals are actually better than I expected. Besides the looks, it functions just fine. The lock does not look like a forging (per India locks). There are file marks on the entire outer edge of the lock plate telling me it was shaped from something else originally.
I'm starting to wonder if this lock started life as one of those Siler "Gunsmith" locks with the square plate ? The dog catch and outside hammer stop are both just a styling exercise. What do you guys think ? Wonder who made it ? LOL

Rick

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Hi Rick,

I'm pretty sure it's a siler lock that comes with the square plate, so a lock can be custom made.(Gunsmith lock like you say.)
I think someone just wanted an early doglock, and did a bit at the Siler.

Is the barrel marked? Looks a bit Colerain to me.
I used on of theirs on a matchlock a long time ago.

All the best,
Richard.

 

[rickystl]

Hi Richard

I'm now sure you and Dave are both right. This seems to be an earlier attempt to make a doglock-looking musket utilizing a modified Siler "gunsmith" lock, a contemorary 42" barrel, and a walnut stock. So, I think we've solved the mystery. The butt plate is attached with square head nails.
There are no marks I can find on top of the barrel. But there might be on the bottom when I get the barrel off for cleaning. At present, there doesn't seem to be any evidence the barrel originally had any overly high polish associated with India made barrels. And the flats are too sharp and pronounced for India barrels. And, as mentioned above about the wedding bands.
So it looks like this gun needs a big dose of TLC. I'll start by disassembling the lock and let it soak for a few days while I take the barrel off and work on it. Good thing I have a decent supply of Kroil oil on hand :haha: Hope the bore is not too coroded. But I can always burnish it out if necessary. I'll at least get this gun back to decent looking shooting condition. Needs three correct pan head lock plate screws and a correct trigger pin.
I bought the entire gun, including shipping for the price of a new barrel alone. And that it turned out to be locally made with contemporary parts made the bargain even more so. Got be happy with that. :haha:
Thanks for everyone's help. Much appreciated.

Rick :hatsoff:

 

[hawkeye2]

It's possible that it was built by Kit Ravenshear. I believe I remember him offering an English lock gun but it was back in the 70's so I'm not 100% sure. I do know for certain that he added fake dogs (they worked but the locks still had a functional halfcock) to then current locks and did other modifications to backdate then currently available guns

 

[rickystl]

Hi Hawkeye

That is very interesting. Hmmmm. That would put this lock in the "early" Siler lock years, if true. I remember back then you had far less choices in shootable locks versus today. Did Siler offer the "Gunsmiths" variation of their lock back then ?
The lock mortise inletting is actually quite good. The lock is a nice, snug fit. Don't think the lock was ever removed. Took a couple/three minutes of light tapping to remove it.
Something else I just noticed: The octagon portion of the barrel measures exactly 11". It appears that most of today's barrels are at least 12". But maybe 11" was the norm back then (?)
Anyway, thatks for the additional insight.

Rick

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Ricky;

I have a few different bore hones if needed ...

Dale

 

[rickystl]

Hi Dale

Thats ok. I have one. but thanks for the offer.

Rick

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Rick, Kit built such guns when at Browns of Farmlington I think?? (UK) then on his own when he came over here. I'm pretty sure he never used a Siler lock. He had his own sets of castings.
His dog-locks were pretty close to how they were.

The barrel still looks Colerain to me.

 

[spudnut]

what a great find, Thats definatley not an India stock,It does look like the ones Ravenshire used to advertise in Muzzeoader magazine

 

[Feltwad]

Rick, Kit built such guns when at Browns of Farmlington I think?? (UK) then on his own when he came over here. I'm pretty sure he never used a Siler lock. He had his own sets of castings.
His dog-locks were pretty close to how they were.

The barrel still looks Colerain to me.

This company supplied everything for the muzzle loader when Kit Ravenshear worked for them



Feltwad

 

[Keb]

The lock parts are undoubtedly Siler, internal & external. The rust, dog hook and that other useless added do-dad are not.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Feltwad,

I was having a complete blank when I wrote "Browns"!
Normans of course, you are absolutely right!

Thank you for setting me straight.

Richard.