How to properly crush BP for the flash pan

[Billnpatti]

Never use BP substitute for any purpose in a flintlock. Because of its higher ignition point, it is not reliable in a flintlock. It can be used in either a caplock or an in-line but NEVER in a flintlock.

 

[Dphar]

If the gun is clean good BP does not absorb moisture from the air to the extent of causing problems. However, ANY fouling present will suck up water, forming liquid water and this WILL effect ignition. So will condensation. But liquid water is not the same as humidity.

Blackpowder that turns to mush in high humidity is made with potassium nitrate contaminated with sodium nitrate or other impure ingredients. The sodium even in minute amounts will make the powder sensitive to humidity. This was a concern until a few years ago with our American manufacturer. However, so far as I know this problem disappeared when their then supplier went belly up and they started using Potassium Nitrate from another supplier that was really what they specified.
So unless using Goex from a few years back there should be no serious humidity problems.
Anyone having this sort of problem should look at 2 things. The powder being used and their management of the gun. When reloading when hunting for example the pan and the area around it must be wiped clean of fouling and dried before loading and priming.
If carrying the rifle in the rain or snow use a full length cover. Preferably leather treated with snow seal.

Dan

 

[roundball]

Never use BP substitute for any purpose in a flintlock. Because of its higher ignition point, it is not reliable in a flintlock. It can be used in either a caplock or an in-line but NEVER in a flintlock.

Words like NEVER are almost always wrong.

BP subs can routinely / successfully be used in Flintlocks...they are a good alternative if someone has difficulty getting real blackpowder, whether temporarily or permanently...and/or has run low on real BP while waiting for re-supply.

While it represents an extra 15 seconds as an extra loading step, a simple 15-20grn igniter charge of blackpowder poured down bore into the breech, followed by an appropriate charge of BP sub makes an excellent 'layered load'...consistent, accurate, etc...the recommendation to do that is printed right on the labels of the BP subs.

No keyboard theory, personal hands on experience...kept from wasting well over $100+ of Pyrodex RS (8 lbs) back when I first switched from caplocks to Flintlocks.

 

[ebiggs1]

Being as “new” to flintlocks shooting as I am, I wonder how some of these stories keep being propagated. That alone plus an intense curiosity of flintlocks is why I do most of the (silly) tests I do. :grin:
If a person can not tell the difference between 2f and 4f as priming powder, they will certainly not be able to tell the difference between the Pyrodex/black powder load and just BP. Also saying that Pyrodex will not work as prime is also not true. Is it slow, yes, is it reliable, no, do I recommend it, no, but it will work. And the fines in the bottom of a can work slightly better.
The matter of 4f fouling is another one. Try as I have, I can not get it 4f to foul any differently than other granulations. I have done things on purpose to foul it.
The two opportunities I have had to shoot deer with a flintlock, I had ample time to prime the gun after seeing the deer. The second one, and the one and only deer I've shot with a flintlock, I could have completely loaded the gun.
I wonder how many folks actually try this stuff or are just passing along long time myths of lore?
Another good one was banking powder away from the touch hole! As if moving it farther from the touch hole would make it faster. If that worked so well, why not make an elongated pan and move it an inch or two farther out? :hmm:

Back to the original point, the film canister, or small Tuperware container and 50 cal ball work well.

 

[roundball]

I wonder how many folks actually try this stuff or are just passing along long time myths of lore?

Without question, IMO that's a major part of it.
There is a lot of keyboard theory expressed as fact with no hands-on to back it up;
There is a lot of info cut & pasted from other peoples posts and threads, then re-posted as fact with no hands-on to back it up;

We have one of those here who routinely does that...and in particular I've personally had to shake my head in disbelief a couple specific times...on two different occasions after I'd made very personal unique comments based on very specific personal unique circumstances...I then saw my very own words cut & pasted verbatium into a post by this member a couple weeks later...not as a quote of mine...but as if it was something he had personally done.

After 8 years on these Forums, I've learned not to take ANYTHING at face value...if I see something of interest, I'll go try to recreate personally, but I don't repeat stuff as gospel if I haven't personally done it...

 

[Rifleman1776]

Actually, he originally asked "how", not 'if'.
This thread has taken some wild turns.

The two opportunities I have had to shoot deer with a flintlock, I had ample time to prime the gun after seeing the deer. The second one, and the one and only deer I've shot with a flintlock, I could have completely loaded the gun.

Maybe in Kansas you can do that. Here in the Ozarks quail hunting would be good training for deer hunting. Now you see 'em, now you don't and that fast. Better be loaded and primed and ready. I check my prime constantly while hunting.

 

[paulvallandigham]

"But liquid water is not the same as humidity."

Kind of depends on where you live and hunt, how hot and Humid it is, or how "Wet" the air is during your hunt, DAN. On one deer hunt here in Champaign County, Illinois, we walked out to our stands in the dark, in Pea Soup FOG. That's as close to "Liquid Water" as you can get. Another deer hunt, in Southern Illinois, had me hunting in a drizzling rain most of the day. Water on everything, and pea soup in the pan after 10 minutes. Another hunt, on a Labor Day weekend in 1981, in Eastern TENNESSEE for wild boar saw us standing in fog, then mist, than light rain, then back to mist and fog and 80-90 degree temps all day long. Pea Soup in the pan within 10 minutes.; Perhaps the worst day I have hunted in was when it was below freezing with frozen ice all over the ground on my way to my stand in a tree. When the sun rose, a light breeze began to blow warm, MOIST air up from the South. It melted the ice around me, and sucked the moisture up into the air. It was like sitting in a cold shower, with moisture condensing on every piece of metal, which remained colder than the warmer air that ran over it. Pea Soup, with water condensing on,and dripping off the bottom of the frizzen into the pan of priming powder.

Yes, the pan was clean and dry before I primed it with 4Fg powder from my priming horn, kept tucked inside my shirt. The powder poured out of the horn just fine, all day long.

I learned ON MY OWN how to check and clean the priming powder out ever 15 minutes or so, and have no problem getting my flintlock to fire in these conditions.

Is that enough " Hands On " experience for you and your buddy? to satisfy you( he's hopeless)that I indeed know what I am talking about? ( rhetorical question requiring no response, thank you.)

I think most all flintlock shooters understand that its the powder RESIDUE that sucks up moisture from the air( Hydroscopic).

However, condensation on lock parts is also another source of "liquid water"( ? when is water not liquid?) that can foul flash pans. Direct contact by fog, mist, drizzles, etc. will also foul your priming powder, if you don't use some kind of "Cow's Knee" to cover the lock, and even then, when you have both high humidity and a substantial change in air temperature, you will still get condensation UNDER the cow's knee.(I've hunted with and without a cow's knee on my gun. I even tried wrapping the lock with plastic wrap to keep the pan and lock parts dry.)

 

[Macon Due]

So Paul, as long as you changed prime every 15 minutes or so you had no problems with the weapon firing? In other words no moisture wetting the main charge from the vent?
I have never hunted with a flintlock in 'wet' conditions,though I look forward to it [I think...]
Macon

 

[Joel/Calgary]

? when is water not liquid?

When it is in the vapor state, especially when being contrasted with the compound in the liquid state. For completeness, one might also note the solid state, commonly called ice, although the solid states of some other compounds are also called ices, with the compound name as an identifying qualifier.

Regards,
Joel

 

[Larry Pletcher]

snipped. . . . .
Also saying that Pyrodex will not work as prime is also not true. Is it slow, yes, is it reliable, no, do I recommend it, no, but it will work. And the fines in the bottom of a can work slightly better. . .snipped again . . .

I suppose one has to draw his own line at some point about where working and not working should be. Below is a chart I made, placing the priming powders I have timed with a computer. I posted this before, I think. I have only timed one sub powder as primer. It wasn't pyrodex, so I will remain open-minded until I do. But, to place a dot for the sub I did time would require another sheet added to the number line. It averaged 1.400 seconds - 50% slower than Goex cannon grade. I consider grades up to and including ffg as a workable - maybe even include Goex Cannon. But I wouldn't consider the sub I timed as workable. This is my opinion; it and 50 cents probably won't buy a Coke anymore. :wink:

Regards,
Pletch

 

[MSW]

Pletch, that's what i enjoy about reading your posts ...

YOU TRY IT OUT (as opposed to repeating "i heard that..." or "it's a well known fact..."

(also, you have really cool gadgets with which you test all this neat stuff.)

anyway, thanks for the post... make some want to go out and make some smoke, even though it's pouring rain!

 

[ohio ramrod]

I have had good results using a large wooden spoon and a medium wooden spoon. I put the FF in the large spoon and put the back of the medium spoon on top and pull back and forth a few times. This works for me and is "self limiting" in that enough powder to cover the bottom of a wooden spoon prevents you from trying to large of a quanity.. The only thing wrong with this method it leaves you with a "dirty spoon", but then the chili really has a bang to it! :idunno: :idunno:

 

[ebiggs1]

I know how slow it is but my meaning was when people say,“It WON'T work!” and that is simply not true. It will work now we must decide if it is acceptable. Just like they say Pyrodex won't work as a main charge. It will work if it has a booster of BP. I am not encouraging anyone to use it in either case. But these words won't and never have meanings. In my short time shooting flintlocks I have shot them as many ways as possible wanting to learn as much as I can. Since I started out so late in life and so many of you folks have a lifetime of experience with them, I just don't have that luxury.

 

[ebiggs1]

In response to ebiggs

Actually, he originally asked "how", not 'if'.
This thread has taken some wild turns.

ebiggs said,
Back to the original point, the film canister, or small Tuperware container and 50 cal ball work well.

Wasn't that “how” enough for you?

 

[Larry Pletcher]

I know how slow it is but my meaning was when people say,“It WON'T work!” and that is simply not true. It will work now we must decide if it is acceptable. . . . .

I won't argue with your opinion. You and I only differ on where we draw the line. This is where each shooter's opinion will vary. I'll draw my "acceptable line" between the BP varieties and the subs, and respect your right to place your line where ever you wish. However, as long as I can buy different grades of BP, I'd probably not prime with Goex Cannon. :wink:

Regards,
Pletch

 

[ebiggs1]

Oh, no, don't get me wrong. I shoot 4f GOEX 99.9% of the time. I am one that believes you CAN tell the differences in priming powder. I wonder at the others that say they can't. Another example of what I was meaning, would be saying the cut agate flints “don't work” because they do. Again do I recommend anyone use them? Absolutely not but you can't say they don't work. You can say they don't work, well, but that is what you can say about Pyrodex. It doesn't work, well, either.

 

[Billnpatti]

You are absolutely correct in saying that black powder substitutes can be used in a flintlock providing you use a duplex load with some black powder in the breach ahead of the BP substitute. When I said that the substitutes should NEVER be used in a flintlock, I was speaking of using the substitute by itself. And, I must qualify my use of the word "never" by saying that one should never use a substitute by itself in a flintlock if reliable ignition is of any importance. If one is willing to accept frequent misfires, a substitute will do fine for them. But if having a reliable ignition in thier flintlock is important, one should never use a substitute by itself and will be required to resort to using duplex loads.

 

[tg]

If you have to crush 3f or 2f to get things to go bang quickly there is likley a problem somewhere in the works :idunno:


I have hunted in the Pacific NW in November for a decade or more with flintlocks and found that 3f works much better for me than 4f as in it does not draw moisture as fast in damp drizzly, foggy weather, just sharing from my personal experience, I can hunt all day with 3f in the pan in most any weather, with only using a lock cover occasionaly in the worst 40mph wind driven rain coming down 3-4 inches a day, but mostly keeping the lock tucked under outer shirts sleeve and cape, each must try various methods and determine for themselves what is best for their conditions,hunting style.