I am just wondering how tight a patch ball combo do I need to get four inch groups at 75 yards with my 62 smooth bore. I would like to not have to use a ball starter.But if that is not going to give me at least a four inch group than I would use the ball starter.I have seen others say they just thumb start theres.I have 42" barrle.I know I have to work up a load but if it isn't possible with a thumb start than I don't want to just waste powder.
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How tight do I need it
- Thread starter mathews
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I honestly don't see why so many people insist on super tight loads! I literally drop a .575 cal ball down my .62 fowler followed by a wad and I can hit a gallon jug at 40 yards. (the size of a mans head) I have also hit a 10" gong at 75 yards. If your smoothbore is well made it will shoot straight. Short starters are a modern item and only serve to clutter up your shooting pouch.
Did Lewis Wentzel use a short starter while loading on the run? I think not.
Did Lewis Wentzel use a short starter while loading on the run? I think not.
August West
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I shoot a 530 in my 56 with a .015 patch, it thumb starts and shoots plenty good out to about 60 yds which is as far as I have shot it. Chris
I shoot a .662 rb with pillow ticking in my Harpers Ferry I have no problem hitting a coffee can lid at 75 yds. I can load it with my thumb. I also shoot the same type of load in my 20ga double gun with .575 rb with the same results. I don't believe you have to have a super tight load to make smooth bores shoot, I have tried heavier patching in my HF and the accuracy goes to hell.
Bob
Bob
Mike Brooks
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If youre bore is an actual .620 I would recommend a .600 and a .020 patch with a real slick lube. It will need a short starter.
Thanks for the help everyone.I just diddn't know It's my first smooth bore.Mike it has a .608 bore i've measured it a half dozzen times I can barely get a .007 patch down it useing a starter. I now have a ball mold from Tanner that is .585. I haven't shot them yet but they feel much tighter than the .575 I tryed and I can still thumb start them witch is what I want.I'll let you all know how it went Sunday.I should be getting Dutches book any time now I orderd it Wednesday.
paulvallandigham
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Everything I am about to write assumes that you are using a SOFT, pure lead ball.
If the ball is suited to the ACTUAL diameter of your barrel- you measure it-- DON't rely on what is stamped on the barrel, or what someone told you--- and is .020" Smaller in diameter( or more) than your BORE DIAMETER, you should be able to thumb start the ball with a Patch that is well greased, and no more than .020" Thick. I start with a patch that is .015" thick, and work up in thickness from there.
REMEMBER, that a ball that diameter has a LOT OF lead to expand when the gun fires it, to press the patching into the walls of the bore. For that reason, Bores that are not pitted, or rusted, and in good condition generally, will usually shoot tight groups with smaller ball diameters, and thicker patches, than would be used in Any Rifle.
Also remember that unlike a rifled barrel, There is NO PLACE for the fabric to compress Into( ie. grooves) so that its fairly easy to determine what thickness patch material will work in that barrel by taking a length of it, centering the ball over the material at the muzzle, and pushing the barrel into the barrel with the fabric. You can then pull on the strips to pull both the fabric and Lead Ball out of the barrel.
With smoothbores, if you have to use a short starter, or worse, a mallet, to start a ball into the barrel pushing on some thick patching, the ONLY way that ball is going down your barrel is by distorting its shape, and elongating that ball a bit. The larger ball diameter, the more force is going to be needed to distort that ball into the muzzle, if that ball diameter/patch thickness combination is too tight for the barrel.
Without seeing your gun, and how you load it, I can't possibly know if you will be ever capable of putting 5 shots into a 4" circle at 70 yards. No offense is intended. There simply are too many variables to consider when it comes to smoothbore "accuracy".
What I can observe from my own experience, and watching other shooters over the years is that most are able to shoot small groups that you are seeking with a thumb started RB in their guns, provided the patching is properly greased, and the right thickness.
One experience I learned here, from CoyoteJoe, is that I may be trying to use too much powder in my 20 gauge load- 75 grains of FFg Goex. He shoots some amazing 50 yd. groups using on 60 grains FFg powder. I am going to have to try that in my gun....... :grin: Until I saw Joe's targets here, I was very proud of the groups I got with what I thought was a rather light load of powder. At the short ranges we are talking about, That huge, heavy ball is going to go right through any deer you shoot, so the difference in MV is not that big a concern, IMHO.
Those are the BIG "ifs" that keep us all practicing, and trying out different combinations, as well as staying up nights using micrometers, or calipers to measure, and scales to weigh and sort our cast lead balls. :grin: :surrender: :thumbsup: Most of us will grin broadly when asked if we ever have tried a "different " Lube on our patches. :bow: :grin: Its not a question of "if", for most of us, but when was the last time I did that! :shocked2: :blah: :surrender: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
If the ball is suited to the ACTUAL diameter of your barrel- you measure it-- DON't rely on what is stamped on the barrel, or what someone told you--- and is .020" Smaller in diameter( or more) than your BORE DIAMETER, you should be able to thumb start the ball with a Patch that is well greased, and no more than .020" Thick. I start with a patch that is .015" thick, and work up in thickness from there.
REMEMBER, that a ball that diameter has a LOT OF lead to expand when the gun fires it, to press the patching into the walls of the bore. For that reason, Bores that are not pitted, or rusted, and in good condition generally, will usually shoot tight groups with smaller ball diameters, and thicker patches, than would be used in Any Rifle.
Also remember that unlike a rifled barrel, There is NO PLACE for the fabric to compress Into( ie. grooves) so that its fairly easy to determine what thickness patch material will work in that barrel by taking a length of it, centering the ball over the material at the muzzle, and pushing the barrel into the barrel with the fabric. You can then pull on the strips to pull both the fabric and Lead Ball out of the barrel.
With smoothbores, if you have to use a short starter, or worse, a mallet, to start a ball into the barrel pushing on some thick patching, the ONLY way that ball is going down your barrel is by distorting its shape, and elongating that ball a bit. The larger ball diameter, the more force is going to be needed to distort that ball into the muzzle, if that ball diameter/patch thickness combination is too tight for the barrel.
Without seeing your gun, and how you load it, I can't possibly know if you will be ever capable of putting 5 shots into a 4" circle at 70 yards. No offense is intended. There simply are too many variables to consider when it comes to smoothbore "accuracy".
What I can observe from my own experience, and watching other shooters over the years is that most are able to shoot small groups that you are seeking with a thumb started RB in their guns, provided the patching is properly greased, and the right thickness.
One experience I learned here, from CoyoteJoe, is that I may be trying to use too much powder in my 20 gauge load- 75 grains of FFg Goex. He shoots some amazing 50 yd. groups using on 60 grains FFg powder. I am going to have to try that in my gun....... :grin: Until I saw Joe's targets here, I was very proud of the groups I got with what I thought was a rather light load of powder. At the short ranges we are talking about, That huge, heavy ball is going to go right through any deer you shoot, so the difference in MV is not that big a concern, IMHO.
Those are the BIG "ifs" that keep us all practicing, and trying out different combinations, as well as staying up nights using micrometers, or calipers to measure, and scales to weigh and sort our cast lead balls. :grin: :surrender: :thumbsup: Most of us will grin broadly when asked if we ever have tried a "different " Lube on our patches. :bow: :grin: Its not a question of "if", for most of us, but when was the last time I did that! :shocked2: :blah: :surrender: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I forgot that I do one thing different in my 20ga. I load 65gr FFg and a Circle Fly cushion wad then the pillow ticking and the .575 Rb, that cushion wad made a big difference in the way the gun shot. It shot good enough for my dad to hit a Antelope in the head at about 85yds. (he didn't go very far)
Bob
Bob
paulvallandigham
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The added use of the cushion wad does a couple of things that help accuracy.
1.It provides a MUCH BETTER GAS SEAL than the small ball and pillow ticking patch could possibly do.
2. When the powder charge burns and pushes against the cushion wad, the front of the wad forms a cup around the back of the ball, helping to CENTER THE BALL in the barrel, as it then travels down and out the muzzle. The Pillow ticking doesn't have to do that job( and could not, considering how thin it is) by itself.
The only thing a the patch does is: a. lubricate the bore to help keep fouling soft; and b. protect the bore from having lead rubbed off against it.
These are good things, IMHO, and the proof seems evident, from the accuracy you report getting.
Congratulations. :hatsoff: :hatsoff: :wink:
1.It provides a MUCH BETTER GAS SEAL than the small ball and pillow ticking patch could possibly do.
2. When the powder charge burns and pushes against the cushion wad, the front of the wad forms a cup around the back of the ball, helping to CENTER THE BALL in the barrel, as it then travels down and out the muzzle. The Pillow ticking doesn't have to do that job( and could not, considering how thin it is) by itself.
The only thing a the patch does is: a. lubricate the bore to help keep fouling soft; and b. protect the bore from having lead rubbed off against it.
These are good things, IMHO, and the proof seems evident, from the accuracy you report getting.
Congratulations. :hatsoff: :hatsoff: :wink:
Hey Mathews. Just a note from history,mine that is. The original recommended load from Curly at the original North Star, was 65 grs of 2F with a 600 RB and .010 patch. I shot the Curly Tribute NW gun, constucted from all left over original NW parts a while ago.. All I had time for was 5 rounds, to test function, see where it hits, that kind of stuff. First shot was 2-1/2 inches low at 7:00 o'clock. Second was was an inch low at 5:30. Next three went through the center "X" in one ragged hole. Now, this was only shot at 25 yards, but gives you the idea. My Early English (Type G) has shot certified one hole groups at 50 yards. Oh, forgot to tell you, on the tribute gun, only the first two rounds were shot with a patch. The three in one hole were shot unpatched. Likewise the EE Type "G" at 50. This is part of the reason these things are so much fun. Easy to load and hunting accuracy. And I do have the pictures of certified targets of both should you doubt. A NW gun is also one of the most forgiving M/L's there is. So enjoy
Dick NieKamp
Dick NieKamp
Mike Brooks
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Cool, certified targets..... :bow:
Greenmtnboy
62 Cal.
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mathews said:
Take Mike's advise I did.
All tho I shot a .600RB and .018 patch I switched to a .610 RB and a .010 patch and got better consistancy.
Also at Mike's advise I no longer shoot a over powder wad and All my smooth bores have rear sites.
A left hand smoothbore. Beautiful. Curly would have loved it. He built a left handed Chief's Grade NW gun. Shot 3 buffalo with it. Nice shootin' on your part. Don't ya love messin' with "rifle guys" who say ya can't hit anything with a smoothbore. Do you have any more pix of the gun?
Dick
Dick
Greenmtnboy
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nkmprdstr said:
ya curly was a hero back in the 80's when I got the bug.
I love the stories in the first buckskinner books.
I got few pics of my new tulle. Here are some from this fall grouse hunting.
I shot my first whitetail when I was eight with my greatgrang fathers 1893 marlin 3240. My grandfather put the Marlin back on the wall and handed me a 30 inch 12 guage from Montgomery ward and said you filled the Blanchard tradition now use this shot gun until you save enough money to get yourself a proper deer rifle.
I could group center pie plate at 50 yrds with that 12 guage and harvested three deer with it until I had enough money to go in to sears and get myself a new Marlin 336 30-30.
Here's a target shot with my Bobby Christian carolina 62 cal,the flyer off to the left was a delayed fire and I raised up to see what as going on
Range 60yds
Goex FFg 60 gr
No patch,one ox yoke felt wad OP & over the ball
.600 lead ball from a lee mold,greased with beeswax and olive oil
[/img]
So for this SB patches do not seem to be needed (haven't tried any yet but not sure I will0
Range 60yds
Goex FFg 60 gr
No patch,one ox yoke felt wad OP & over the ball
.600 lead ball from a lee mold,greased with beeswax and olive oil
So for this SB patches do not seem to be needed (haven't tried any yet but not sure I will0
Thats some good shoting.If I can get mine and me to shot that good I'll be happy. I see you use ff I've been useing fff 80 gr I'll have to try ff.I tryed 70 gr of fff too.I can only get a 10" group at 40 yards with it.I'll try again this comeing weekend.I'll try it without the wad also.Thanks
Mike Brooks
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Are your barrel lugs sloted?mathews said:
the fella I bought it from suggested the load etc,this group was after several tries and learning to use the "turtle"sight up front,there is no rear,found out that the base of the turtle and its upright make an upside down "T" if I place the bottom if the "T" accross the bulls eye or POI i desire and use the upright portion to bisect that area I get good results,also learned not to snuggle way down on the stock,like shooting a rifle that resulted in a too low impact,one other consideration is that any canting of the barrel makes for poor groups so using the upright part of the "T" to avoid any canting improved grouping greatly,I hope this helps :hmm:
