Frizzen to hard

[lbothell]

I have an old trade gun either made by curly gostomski or was one of his kits, not exactly sure bc it was an estate find but it definitely is an early model. It has one of the pedersoli Lott locks on it, the lock is actually really well tuned but the frizzen is definitely to hard. Not getting a good shower of sparks unless the flint is super sharp and even at that they are just okay. Gun shoots great is functions good, just this dang frizzen ha. Anyone know of where I can get a good replacement for that lock? Preferably aftermarket and not one from pedersoli. Or anyone know how to soften a frizzen?? I know you can harden one.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Your problem should be solved by tempering the frizzen.

Tempering relieves some of the stresses in hardening and toughens the metal. You need to heat the frizzen up to 350°F to 720°F and let it cool. Easiest method is to heat you oven to 375°F and heat the part for an hour. Turn the oven off and let the frizzen cool. Try the frizzen for sparks.

Others may offer other methods for tempering. They also work. Some involve more elaborate heat treating ovens or lead baths. Let's see where this thread goes.

I don't think that you will find a suitable replacement lock for the Lott lock. You may need to find a machine shop to do the heat treatment for your frizzen.

 

[Rusty Gunn]

If the frizzen is too hard, annealing in an oven at 400-450 F for about 20 minutes and then turn offheat and allow to slow cool to room temperature will anneal the frizzen. Make sure the frizzen is clean ( degreased and dried before using your oven)
Don't ask me why.
RG

 

[lbothell]

Thank you! I will give this a try and see how it goes, I was going to order a Davis lock to replace it but they are pretty hard to get right now since everything is on back order. As for the oven treatment I know I'll need to test it after I do it, but is it usually a one and done or probably something that will take multiple applications

 

[Loyalist Dave]

It should be one and done.

Now as to the Pedersoli "Lott" lock...,
You may find that your flint angle is a bit off. Mine was. So what I did was to take a common, wooden matchstick, the smaller size, not the "kitchen" matches that fit in a box larger than the average hand.

So I put the match under the flint, where the back of the flint touches the jaw screw. This cants the front edge of the flint slightly downward. OH and if you are using a leather wrap, be sure you cut a notch in the leather where it wraps around the back of the flint, so that the back of the flint rests against the actual jaw screw. With both of these modifications I found my frizzen sparked much better.

After the diagnosis, I load a piece of hard leather underneath and at the back of the flint, pretty much the same size as the original matchstick, as well as wrapping the flint with leather, when inserted into the jaws of the cock. It's not very much of a difference, especially when the jaws are tightened down, but it does make a good difference in the results.

LD

 

[lbothell]

That definitely helped, so now I'm thinking it might be an angle thing now instead of the frizzen but it might be both

 

[Tom Compton]

Frizzen temper is very seldom too hard, most often not hard enough.

Bet on it being angle of the dangle. Another way to change the geometry of a lock is a longer or shorter flint or it's mounting in the jaws.
TC

 

[M. De Land]

I am slowly coming to the conclusion/opinion that frizzens can never be to hard ( after temper draw). In the hardest condition possible to carbon steel after drawing the temper,they are still pretty soft compared to flint which is a 7 on the diamond scale of 10. I feel it is a strike angle issue more than a frizzen hardness problem.

 

[rich pierce]

I recently re-soled a troublesome frizzen with a piece of crosscut saw blade. Without tempering, it was too hard. Tempering it improved sparking a lot. I was surprised.

 

[LRB]

Use a separate oven thermometer. Do not trust your oven settings unless you know they are correct. Most are not. You are not annealing, you are tempering. Start with a 375° temper for an hour, air cool, then try. That is usually a perfect temper for frizzens. Most good sparking frizzens are usually around 60/62 in Rockwell hardness. In testing the frizzen for that range of hardness, A new or good file should just barely be able to scratch it.

 

[lbothell]

Lots of good info thanks fellas, I'm going to have to say after messing with it and what not the lock is definitely in some need of tuning. Little bit of polishing better angles. As I tinkered around with it and used some of the advice you guys gave me I'm getting better sparks which is good but they are being thrown in front of my pan, and not in the pan itself. Now it's not that the gun doesn't go off and it goes off very fast but I need it more reliable for hunting season. Also my frizzen is slow and where it rolls needs polished so we will see if that helps

 

[M. De Land]

I had a lot of trouble getting my match pistol to spark well, even sent it back to the maker and it still wouldn't spark for beans.
I re-case hardened with Kasnite twice and finally did a complete re-hardening protocol for through hardening (not knowing the steel type). Drew the temper and still very little spark production.
I thought what to heck I'm going to learn something here even if I have to mill and file out a new cock.
I heated the cock and bent it forward just a few degrees and presto had sparks galore!
This also helped to direct the spark shower into the pan.
I think sparks hitting powder directly before bouncing off some other surface is important to ignition.
I would also add that learning to pressure flake my flint edges greatly aided spark production as well as flint longevity.

 

[M. De Land]

Drawing temper does anneal hardened steel some as the tempering tables indicate but the prime advantage is getting rid of brittleness so the part does not fracture and yet maintains a level of hardness required for the task requirement.

 

[nwtradegun]

flintlock etc. is major importer of pedrisoli arms and parts http://www.flintlocksetc.com/

 

[don hepler]

I have a pistol of unknown origin. It was custom built and very nicely done, however, it would not produce a good spark. I fiddled around with different flints, with varying results, and by chance, put a synthetic or machine ground flint, and that ended the problem. It could be that, the length of the ground flint, produces the best angle, but having consistent ignition, I just left it alone. But, since I don't shoot the pistol, that often, it's not a big problem.

 

[lbothell]

I agree 100%! I was playing around with the flint angle and found the same thing, it is definitely the angle of the cock. I also started comparing it to my chambers locks and the pedersoli is definitely off a good bit. Iv been looking for my mini torch to heat it up to bend but can't find it anywhere ha but once I do (or just go get a new one) I'll be in business

 

[M. De Land]

One caution when you bend adjust a cock, makes sure you keep the jaw plane square to the frizzen face. No canting to one side or the other when you make the bend. It will only take just a few degree and then the cock should be re-heat treated to original spec for the very best job although I didn't and mines still going strong.
Remember this will change the flint length necessary a bit as well.

 

[LRB]

I don't know of any lock making companies that heat treat the cocks, or the plates either. There is really no need of it. These parts are usually of low carbon steels. Off the shelf locks are made from cast parts which can be improved by heat cycling which will reduce grain size and increase strength, but I can assure you none of the common lock making companies bother. You gun builders who assemble your locks from "kits" with cast parts can improve the strength of all your cast lock parts with heat cycling, whether some of these parts will be hardened and tempered later or not. Cast steel parts come from their molds with structures of pretty large grain. Heat cycling will greatly improve this.

 

[M. De Land]

Thanks Wick, good information. Do you think I should cycle the cock I heat bent and what would you suggest for time, temp and quench if applicable?

 

[LRB]

I don't think it to be critical in need, but it is added insurance if you want to do it. Not knowing exactly what steel it is, I would suggest the following. 3 heats are enough. If you have an oven, heat to around 1600°, let it soak a minute or so, then let air cool. Next heat at around 1475°/1500°, let air cool. Last heat down around 1350°, air cool, and you should have it. With high carbon steels especially, it is not good to do more than the three heats. If you reduce grain size down too fine with some of the high carbon steels, the steel can become difficult to even impossible to fully harden without fully annealing and starting all over. If done with a torch or other heat source, heat to bright orange, air cool, heat to a good red and air cool, then a low red, preferably still magnetically attracted, but that's not critical. Non-magnetic is 1414°. FYI. That first high heat with a short soak is to purposely grow the grain size giving them all a chance to become more even to one another in size. Afterwards, they will pretty much keep an even size through the other heats.