First flintlock - Lyman TR. Questions...

[BillCar]

Thanks for the post, Zoar. Don't worry, I was talking about that .54 barrel for well in the future!

The scope is not currently mounted, the mounts are still in place, though. I do intend to buy real black powder, because I want to work up a load with it as soon as possible. I haven't had time to fire it yet, but I definitely know enough about the Trade Rifle now to know that if/when it doesn't fire, the problem is most likely going to be with something I did, and not the gun itself.

Oh, and a ball puller did come with the cleaning supplies!

 

[Zoar]

Cool.

Indeed and 99.9 per cent of the time it is trying to use fake black powder OR over cleaning in the field that cause problems getting the main charge to go off... Some people on this planet think more is ALWAYS better so if you are supposed to clean a gun then cleaning after every shot is better.... Obviously, it is possible to clean after every shot and not get crud in the touch hole or residual fluid in the bore---ruining the powder. But it is almost inhumanely possible to clean and dry perfectly every time and remove everything you've forced down into the breach (where the charge for the next shots gets blocked or ruined). Totally contrary to this over zealous mindset, and I found this to work well for me: I run a jag with a dry cloth in my Trade Rifle Flinter ONLY when it gets too hard to push the patched ball down the barrel--that ranges from AFTER about 5 to 8 shots. Sometimes I may add a LITTLE spit to the patch to clean the barrel better, then run a second dry patch. But that may only be every other or even third cycle of 5 to 7 shots. Some guys take their gun to the range and pour solvents or cleaning agents down in the barrel, brush it out, take the brush off their rod and install a jag on it, then send patch after patch down it to "clean" the barrel, then after "cleaning" it thoroughly in this way after every shot, they are ready for the next shot.... Cripes, to me that is work, perscription for ignition problems, and most all all---not fun. I thought this was supposed to be fun?! hahaha

I only "clean" my flintlock AFTER I am DONE shooting it for the day!

And yes it IS very fun to shoot a flintlock....

 

[BillCar]

So, I still haven't taken it out to the range or anything yet, but today I took it down to the woods just to fire a few pans of primer. I swabbed out the lock and pan with some water and detergent, and then dried it. I am wondering though if there is anything else I should be cleaning, and if I am cleaning this properly.

I had plugged the vent hole with a toothpick, but afterwards, I ran a dry patch down the barrel. I had been told it had been cleaned. There were brown smears where the rifling is, which I'm assuming was some oil. I did, however, discover some black powder fouling (which I assume is from the Triple Se7en, as the previous owner only ever fired Triple Se7en from the gun). The fouling was only at the very bottom of the bore, as I just had a ring of it on the patch in the shape of the head of the cleaning jag.

I've read a lot about cleaning flintlocks, but for some reason, I don't recall seeing a lot about cleaning after firing priming charges. Also, would that Triple Se7en fouling I'm seeing be corroding the barrel? I know it's supposed to be non-corrosive, and there's not much of it, but do I need to do a full cleaning of the barrel, or should I just wait until I actually have fired the gun?

I have purchased 3F Goex, and won't be using Triple Se7en myself.

Thanks in advance for any answers.

 

[paulvallandigham]

New guns come with some kind of coating on the inside of the barrel. Use alcohol to flush this out. Whenever you fire off priming powder, expect that some will have gotten into the vent and into the powder chamber. The powder chamber is a reduced diameter hole in the breechplug at the back or bottom of the barrel, and you are going to need to find out what depth and diameter that chamber is. Then buy a bore brush and a scraper to help you clean it out. You need to take out the vent liner, and determine how " clean" the flash channel from the vent to the powder chamber is- ie, is it smooth sided, free of casting burrs, etc. Determine the diameter of the channel by testing several drill sizes. Most of these can stand to be opened up a bit. All of them can stand polishing, to reduce the pores that will hold on to powder residue.

Your gun may have a clean out screw. If so, remove it. When you put the clean out screw back and the liner back, use an anti-seize compound you can buy at auto supply stores on the threads. That will protect the threads from hot gases, and make it easier to remove them the next time you have to do so.

Run some oiled patches down your barrel, doubled if needed for a tight fit, and FEEL how smooth or rough the barrel may be. If it feels rough, then polish the bore with lapping compound, or at minimum, JB bore cleaner. Or use Flitz. There are polishing rouges and compounds available at paint, hardware, and home improvement stores. The smoother the bore of the new gun is, the easier it will be to load and shoot.

Always check the crown at the muzzle for sharp edges. Take a wide strip of cloth similar to what you want to use for patching material, start a ball down the muzzle, and then use the long ends of the fabric strip to pull the ball back out. Check the fabric for small cuts that correspond to the front of the lands of your rifling. If you see cuts, you can stand to polish the crown to remove those sharp edges. A lag bolt head( half round steel bolt head) backing fine emery clothe will generally do the job.

Unless you have a specific problem develop, or become apparent after you fire your new gun, that should make your gun ready to shoot. Have fun. :thumbsup:

 

[BillCar]

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the response. The rifle is actually a used one, had about 50 - 100 shots put through it before I took ownership.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I still recommend flushing the barrel with alcohol, as well as the flash channel. You have no idea how long its been since it was really cleaned, or what is inside it. You want to take that gun down to bare metal so you can see what you have with which to work. Do remove the clean out screw, and nipple, and inspect the flash channel. Put a light down there, and then look down the barrel to see if light is coming through, and if so, from where?

When I used to fire caps on my percussion, and when I fired a few priming charges in my flintlock, I would first run a damp patch down the barrel with my cleaning rod, and leave the rod in the barrel while I fired off the priming powder or cap. That way, the debris would be caught by the patch. You will be amazed at how much stuff comes out on that patch. I don't fire caps, or priming powder off in my flintlocks, now. I do flush the barrels with alcohol when they are taking out of my gunroom to go to the range or field. I inspect the lock to make sure all screws are in place and all parts are working properly. I often give the stock another coat of wax if its wet outside. A very lightly oiled cleaning patch is run down the barrel before I put the gun in its scabbard for transportation. At the range, a dry patch will remove that light oil from the barrel before I load the gun. The oil serves its purpose of protecting the bore from rust during transportation. If I am hunting, after I seat my PRB on the powder charge, I will run another greased cleaning patch down the barrel to lube the bore in front of the PRB. This protects the bore from rusting during the day in the field.

I Live and shoot, and hunt in central Illinois, where we have high relative humidity about 9 months of the year. Only in late December, January and February is it so cold that the relative humidity gets really low! I don't have to worry so much about rust during those months of shooting and hunting. The rest of the year, the bore gets attention always to protect it from rust. If you don't live on a coastal plain, or in the corn belt, you can vary your loading and cleaning techniques from what I do with little fear of rusting your barrel. Just pay attention to your daytime temperatures, and the relative humidity. Hot air carries more moisture, but thin air negates that condition. So, if you live above 6,000 feet, you rarely have to be concerned with high relative humidity, even during a snowstorm.

 

[BillCar]

So, I took it out today! Just went down to the woods, and so I only fired off three shots (don't want to disturb the neighbours too much). This is the first time I've fired a muzzleloader (and, truth be told, the first time I've fired ANY firearm in quite a few years).

Ignition: super-fast. Didn't notice any delay ”“ it seemed totally instantaneous. 4F in the pan, 3F for the charge.

Shooting: I flinched the first time, bad enough to totally miss the stump I was aiming at (probably only about 22 yards away) and hit the one next to it. However, the second and third shots weren't that bad ”“ I remembered the advice given on various websites to focus on the sights, hold for a follow-through count, etc.

Charge: I wasn't trying to work up a load, and I was mostly just curious to see what various charges would feel like. I tried 55, 60, and 65 grains of 3F. None of them felt like they possessed a lot of kick (I imagine that'd be more for 75 grains and up?). Lubed the first patch with spit, had a hell of a time getting it down the barrel. Switched to the Bore Butter for the last two, and it was much better.

Patch and Ball Combo: .495 ball, .010 patch. One of the patches disappeared downrange somewhere in the snow, but the first two were recovered. The spit patch was intact, not burned through, nice brown ring around the centre. The bore butter patch was a little torn on one side of that centre ring. As I said, the other bore butter patch vanished somewhere.

Swabbing: I swabbed between the first and second shot, not between the second and third. Using the Butch's Bore Shine that came with the gun.

Cleaning: Here's where I was a little uncertain I did things right.

I got a bucket of hot water and dish detergent, and went out on the back porch. Soaked a patch in the water, ran it down the barrel, brought it up. Did this about ten to fifteen times. The barrel had not been swabbed after the third shot, I just brought it up to the house and cleaned it directly. Then I ran a clean patch down. It came back clean on the first swab, but I still swabbed another 8 times or so. It remained clean. I removed the barrel from the water and ran a dry patch down a few times. Next, I took the Bore Shine and ran it down a few times, to coat the inside of the barrel (says it's a water displacer). I then wiped down the barrel with the Bore Shine.

Next, I tried to get the lock off. How do you do that? I undid the fastening screw on the left side of the stock, but that obviously wasn't enough. I didn't want to just start unscrewing things, since I didn't want to take the lock apart. So I kept it on the stock, and cleaned it thoroughly with an old toothbrush soaked in the hot, soapy water. Removed flint and leather, washed both, set leather to dry. Brushed out the pan, under the frizzen, face of the frizzen, cock, jaws, frizzen spring, under the pan, lock plate. Then I dried it, and then took the Bore Shine and a rag and gave it a light coat.

Next, I took some Pledge with Orange Oil. Sprayed it on the stock and the ramrod. Looks and smells nice. Let it set for a while before wiping it down with a dry rag.

One thing I noticed was that I removed some of the finish from the ramrod while running it up and down the barrel. I think my problem was that I was gripping the rod too high, allowing it to flex and contact the muzzle on the way down the bore.

Thanks in advance for letting me know if I've done anything stupid here!

 

[Swampman]

If you use alcohol, don't get any on the stock. It will ruin the finish pronto. I use Windex. WD-40 is good for cleaning out perservative oils used by the factory.

 

[BillCar]

Thanks for the heads up on the alcohol. I almost used some today, until I realized I had the Bore Shine. Seems like the Bore Shine works like WD-40 in terms of displacing water.

 

[Swampman]

I carefully patch my muzzleloaders out with alcohol & then a couple of dry patches before I load them up for hunting. This helps get all the oil out that might foul the charge. That's just my 2 cents. Others may do something else with equal sucess.

 

[Trot]

Put the lock on halfcock before removing. It may be a snug fit, first loosen the lock bolt then tap the head of the bolt with a rubber mallet to loosen the lock. It should come right out.

 

[Zoar]

BCon--- So YOU SHOT IT!!!!! and we are waiting with baited breath to find out if you ENJOYED IT!!!

Don't need to take the lock off to clean it.

You have probably cleaned that gun better than it ever was cleaned combined. I clean my muzzleloaders with warm water and soap like you did, then dry them and then apply bore butter and/or other quality gun oil rust preventative.

Easy and fast.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Sorry, Zoar, I can't agree with you. I think its important to take that lock out of the mortise and clean and re-oil the insides, and check the screws EVERY TIME I SHOOT THE GUN. I have had too many club members come to me with locks that stopped working in the middle of a shoot, who have never taken the lock out of the stock, and had no clue that one or more of the screws were loose inside. When they saw both the build up of residue, and the rust that resulted, they were sick! Getting their locks back to shooting only involved screwing the screws back down, in 98% of the cases. I left them to clean the lock properly when they got home that evening.

I demonstrate, and then tell them what kind of oils to use, and how much on the internals, and repeatedly tell them NOT to use this oil in the barrel. Most had never thought about what oil to use, much less the need to use different oils for different purposes.

The reward for all that pain is that I have made some lifelong friends, who have in turn taught others how to properly maintain their guns, and clean them. And every time I see these guys at the club, they have a cheery smile and hello for me, and bring me up to date on who is the latest member they have educated.

This stuff is not in a book, unfortunately. :shocked2:

 

[BillCar]

Zoar:

Yep, I certainly did enjoy it. Feels very, VERY different from a centrefire or rimfire. I'm obsessive about cleaning things like that, so I probably will go to the same lengths each time. I take extremely good care of my Chek-Mate Hunter I recurve bow as well!

Paul:

When you say you tell them not to use "that oil" on the gun, do you specifically mean the Butch's Bore Shine that I have been using?

 

[paulvallandigham]

I don't know anything about Butch's Bore Shine. So, no I was not speaking about it. If you have been following discussions here for any length of time, you should understand that petroleum based oils have no place inside the bore. You can use them to lubricate the internal action parts, the trigger, etc. but don't put it in the barrel. There are vegetable based oils, and Mineral based oils out there that work better with black powder, and are therefore suitable for use in the barrel of a Mler. I have not yet heard of a substitute powder that will work well with petroleum based oils in the barrel, either.

Burning petroleum based oils inside the barrel of a MLer using BP will produce tars and unburned oil that congeals, and just gets thicker and thicker, and sticker the more times the gun is fired. I don't believe the temperature of caps or priming powder is hot enough, LONG ENOUGH, to burn out the tars.

That is the reason I recommend flushing MLers out with alcohol after any length of time in storage, with any oil or grease product use- petroleum, mineral, or vegetable based. I do believe that vegetable based oils DO burn better than the Petroleum based oils will, but I would rather not lose a shot on game in the field by hoping I am right on that score, when I can easily flush my barrel with alcohol, and eliminate the concern entirely. I do this flushing at home, when I pull the gun out of the gunroom to take to the range or field. After flushing, I dry the barrel with dry cleaning patches, then run a lightly oiled patch down the barrel to keep the barrel free of rust during transportation to the field or range. At the range or field, I run a dry patch down the barrel to soak up the thin layer of oil down the barrel, before pouring my first powder charge down the barrel.

Concern should be given to any rifle you own that has a smaller than bore diameter " Powder Chamber", as its very hard to clean those smaller chamber if you don't have the correct sized brush/jag for that job. Many owners of Lyman GPR and the T/C rifles don't even know they have such a powder chamber at the back of the breech. The same for older CVAs, and rifles sold through Cabelas and other distributors, which are made in Italy and Spain. Depending on the bore diameter, the powder chamber can be as small as .25 caliber to as large as 33 caliber. A few very large bore guns will have a powder chamber that is .45-.50 caliber. You have to spend some time acquiring the correct size equipment to clean these if you intend to shoot a lot of rounds during a shooting session.

These guns also have narrow flash channels that lead from the vent hole( or nipple, in percussion models) to the center of the back of the powder chamber. These channels must also be kept clean, and the shooter needs pipe cleaners, and needs to visually check the channel to see that it has no blockages due to casting burrs. We have seen many of these guns with clear barrels, but with flash channels that are completely plugs, because they were not inspected and cleaned properly at some point. Shooting of priming powder in your pan is just not going to clean that flash channel. It may even add residue to the existing stuff, and contribute to blockages. A Vent pick, or nipple wire can be used to clear these channels, if they are the correct size to fit through the vent hole and traverse the length of the channels.

The hole in the back or "bottom" of the powder chambers on these guns tend to be too small. That is often where a blockage will occur. It is next to impossible to clear this blockage from the vent hole or the clean out hole accessed by removing the clean out screw if it exists. You have to attack it from the muzzle of the gun with scrapers, and solvents. Sometimes, you can fill the channel up with priming powder, poured and pushed through the vent hole, and then blow out the obstruction. Its always worth a try. But, then, clean the flash channel, and powder chamber properly by flushing them with alcohol.

I always recommend the owners of new guns with these powder chambers take the clean out screw out of the gun, and use a properly fitted drill bit to "ream" the channel of any burrs. I also believe that if you can use a slightly larger bit, to open up(widen) the channel, without compromising the threads for the clean-out screw, that this will help elongate the small hole at the bottom of the powder chamber, decreasing the chances for a blockage there. The smoother the flash channel, and the wider in diameter the channel is, the better the ignition will be.

 

[BillCar]

Hi Paul,

I haven't been around that long, I don't think the Bore Shine is a petroleum-based oil, though. I don't have the bottle handy at the moment, but I don't intend to be putting any petroleum-based oils through the gun.

 

[Onojutta]

I found that 80 grains of FFFg with a .490 ball and a .020 wonderlube patch are a great load for the Trade Rifle. The Trade Rifle is a great gun. In fact I took 3rd place at a club shoot against guys with all the fancy high end custom guns.

Best way to clean one is the hot water method. The barrels lend themselves to this very easily.

If you are looking just for 54 cal, Lyman makes drop-in barrels so you could just use one of theirs. Some say the 1 in 48 twist is a bit much for round ball, but that's all I shoot and see my third sentence above for my opinion on it being too much twist.

 

[Zoar]

Onojutta--- Yes, those Lyman Trades are often under-rated here. Nice shooting!

Hey, and BCON, so glad you enjoyed the flintlock shooting!!! I hope you are hooked.

As Paul said and it seems you are a cleaner, too, cleaning the locke is good to do. I defer in that I do not do it every time I shoot my flinters. Each has his own policy. I don't put my clothes away every night either (oh mY!)

I have found that if I clean my lockes every few months it is good enough to prevent any problems for me. Generally with my Trade Rifle (which is as stated a breeze to clean) I use warm water and soap and dry it out well then apply rust preventative. If you have the time and inclination to disassemble and clean the locke every time you shoot, wow, more power to you.

Enjoy your Flintlock!

 

[Walks with fire]

I just received an e-mail today from Kerry Smith at GM. They will be making some 15/16" .54 1/70 twist drop-ins in a couple of months.

 

[BillCar]

Onjuatta ”“ I hope to maybe take it out tomorrow and try to work up a load in the 65 - 80 grain range.

Zoar ”“ yeah, it's definitely a ton of fun! Feels very satisfying when it goes off. I didn't figure I'd get solid, instant ignition each of the first three times I shot it!

Walks with fire ”“ That's good news about the GM barrels. Guess I'll have to see if I can reserve one! If I miss out, I'd just get the .54 Lyman barrel like Onjuatta suggests.