Figuring out the right load

[grndhntr]

I went out this morning to figure out what load shot the best from my new (to me) TC Renegade. I started at 50 yds. and 60 gr. of Pyrodex, but my 3-shot group was so large that I was nearly off my target so I got closer (30 yds)and slowly worked up in powder. I was surprised that the more powder I used, the tighter my groups got. I have read that most BP guns shoot best with lower powder. Here are my 3-shot groupings-all shot at 30 yds. except for the 60 gr. charges:

50 gr. 9 1/4" 3-shot group
60 gr. 9 3/4" (50 yds.)
70 gr. 4 11/16"
80 gr. 4 1/4"
90 gr. 3 7/16
100 gr. 3 11/16 (I had 1 flyer or it would have been 2 3/8")
110 gr. 1 1/2"

After shooting my 1 1/2" 3-shot group with 110 gr., I decided to shoot 2 more just to make sure it wasn't a fluke. My 5 shot group was 2 1/4"!

 

[grndhntr]

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Here's the 5-shot group with the 3-shot group circled.

 

[grndhntr]

Does this seem strange that the highest load suggested for a rifle is the most accurate?

 

[rabjr]

I would now go back soon as I could and try 80, 90 only and see what you get. Check to see if theres any difference from the previous groups.

 

[napolean]

Bullets or balls?
Jon D

 

[grndhntr]

I was shooting balls.

 

[mykeal]

Not at all strange. Nor is it the best that gun can do, in my opinion. Next thing to try is tighter patching and/or larger balls, again starting at 60 and working up; then try different patch lubes. I believe you'll find a combination that will match or better those groups at a lower powder load.

 

[necchi]

The patch thickness an lube properties are kind of a big deal too, :wink:

If you change just the lube properties your most accurate powder charge will change

If you change just the patch thickness your most accurate powder charge will change.

Example;
My .54 Renegade likes 530 ball about 80grns of 2F T7 with an .018 patch lubed kinda dry.
My .54 GM like a .535 ball about 70grns of powder .020 patch lubed kinda dry.

Both of these will make one ragged hole at 50yrds. And I have others that will do the same, it's a benchmark of accuracy for me. Point is, a combination of the 3 listed variables each and combined affect the accuracy of the rifle. It takes me about 70-100 shots to work all the variables to the best point for the gun.

 

[napolean]

I would try a little thicker patching first.
Did you recover any of your fired patches?
They can tell amazing stories.
Back off the charge to say 60 grains. Work up the same as before.
At 30 yards with a good rest that T/C should put em in just 1 ragged hole when the right load is discovered.
I don't think it will end up at 100+ grains either.
Jon D

 

[grndhntr]

Yeah, it sounds like I should try a tighter patch. I'm still figuring out this BP thing but it seems to load easy with .010 lubed patches and would probably be a little more accurate with .018 patches.

 

[crockett]

On a single shot pistol I was getting 6" groups at 25 yards with a .010 lubed patch. I went to .018 lubed patch and the groups went down to 2". As stated- there are A LOT of variables but that's the FUN. To me I like toying around until I have gotten the best possible groups- then I sort of lose interest in that gun and go on to the next firearm.

 

[longcruise]

Appearances can be very decieving. I was shooting a rather heavy load in a .50 cal at 50 yards and getting pretty good groups in the two inch range. It surprised me because the patches were pretty badly ripped up. That same load at 100 yards was shooting around 10 inches.

What I'm trying to suggest here is that you may have had the same thing going on. It's my theory that when a patch/ball combo is ripping patches, the inaccuracies caused by ripped patches is not linear. I think the effects grow larger at longer ranges as was observed with the .50 I mentioned above. The other part of my theory is that this non-linear break down in accuracy happens more quickly with slower balls. This is all theory with nothing to substantiate it.

Just in case I might be right, you might want to try testing some of your patch/ball combos off the bench at 100 yards in order to arrive at the best fit for your barrel.

 

[William O.]

Does this seem strange that the highest load suggested for a rifle is the most accurate?

Not at all, every rifle is an individual and some just like more powder. Now you can see if ball diameter or patch thickness and/or lube will affect accuracy any.
Just re-read your original post, and yes, real black powder will make a difference and you should pick some up but at least you know how much pyrodex it likes.

 

[Stumpkiller]

My Renegade loves light loads. I used to squirrel hunt (with a .54) using 42 gr FFg and taking headshots. It would cloverleaf patched round balls at 50 yards rested. But at 90 grains it started to fall apart.

1:48" twist usually doesn't like a fast roundball and sometimes the 1:66 and 1:72" twists like a faster load. You have to experiment.

 

[longrifle346]

My 54 Renegade does the same thing, pattern falls apart at 90 grains but will drive tacks with 85 and a tightly patched PRB.

 

[grndhntr]

OK, I picked up some "Pillow Ticking" from my local fabric store. Is this always .018? All the pillow ticking patches I have seen for sale have been .018. Do I wash/Dry this before using and can I just cut it into squares? How big? Sorry about all the questions. I'm pretty ignorant about all this.

 

[SawTooth]

Read this recent post on Washing Patch Material by Zonie to the Shooting Accessories Forum
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/255461/

Then do a search on "patch size" in the Shooting Accessories Forum

Hope that helps.

 

[Richard Allen]

Do yourself a favor, read the earlier post about Dutch Schoultz and order his information packet.

If you don't get any benefit from his information other than how to measure patch thickness, that will be the best twenty dollars you ever spent on improving a muzzleloader's accuracy.

When I ordered his packet over ten years ago he even offered to refund your money if you weren't satisfied. I don't suspect he had many requests for refunds.

Richard/Ga.

 

[Lonegun1894]

Yes, you're right on track with the washing and drying before use. The other part of your question about the thickness is another matter though. Unfortunately, the answer is, sometimes. If you have a micrometer or caliper, take it to the store next time and measure the cloth. As for the batch you already bought, I'd say measure it, and then use it anyway. The reason i say measure it, is so you know how thick it was when you use it up. Then, if it worked well, find some more. If it didnt, at least you know, but you polished your bore and got some more practice with your rifle which should help your accuracy in the long run. The calipers are a bit under $20 at Harbor Freight, and can be bought from any of the reloading shops/sites out there also for (usually) similar prices. Keep notes so you know what works well and what does not. This mat sound like a lot at first, but dont worry about it as it starts to become a habit fairly quickly and you'll do it without thinking after a while. Just enjoy the ride.

 

[grndhntr]

OK, with my new patches it was way harder to load so I know it's at least thicker than .010. I used olive oil for lube. I shot 3-shot groups again starting at 50 gr. all the way up to 110. Once again, the 110 gr. charge shot the smallest group at 2" and the group size decreased as the powder increased. It looks like this gun likes lots of powder.