Crockett rifle cleanout screw

[tallpine]

This subject never ceases to be amusing every time it comes up which is often. Regardless of why the hole was drilled or what name it goes by, IT is a clean out screw if you use it as such. I found it to be very useful in cleaning out the drum and removed it every time I did. I also replaced the crappy factory screw with a hardened hex head screw. I also found it to be particularly handy in dealing with the inevitable dry ball.

 

[doubleset]

Used a Bridgeport. Used LocTite on the replacement screw and left it flush with breech plug with no screwdriver slot.

Best way out. I wish I had a mill. My son and I bought an old one at auction, but I have no room for one. Don't have a lathe either. Really depressing.

 

[Grenadier1758]

If those manufacturing plugs were truly intended to be "clean out" screws, why did the manufacturers use such poor quality screws.

 

[doubleset]

I found it to be very useful in cleaning out the drum and removed it every time I did. I also replaced the crappy factory screw with a hardened hex head screw.

My experience also -- with my GPR.

I also found it to be particularly handy in dealing with the inevitable dry ball.

I haven't been in this situation. So far, I've always managed really well with a ball puller.

 

[tallpine]

A flintlock pan primer fits in that little screw hole perfectly.

 

[doubleset]

If those manufacturing plugs were truly intended to be "clean out" screws, why did the manufacturers use such poor quality screws.

But the counter-question to this is "If they didn't intend them as clean out screws, then why make them removable at all?" Given that their own cleaning instructions tell you to take the barrel out for every cleaning, why did Traditions use such a crappy slotted tang screw -- which has to be removed and replaced every time you clean the gun according to their instructions?

There are many mysteries in the contemporary design and production of muzzle loading rifles.

 

[Grenadier1758]

@doubleset, that's why I leave the screw in place.

In theory, the manufacturer has supplied a dandy clean out screw.
In practice, it can become a maintenance nightmare.

 

[doubleset]

I think my take-away from this is that I'm going to file that screw down so it doesn't protrude into the chamber, and then screw it in and leave it. That makes it one less thing to worry about. Since I know I can get a brush in there now with the range rod, I don't see any benefit from being able to get access through the screw hole. So basically, at this point I don't care whether it's a "cleanout screw" or not -- or whether that can or can't be decided.

Interesting discussion, and some added insight into how these things work -- or don't.

 

[Timber Wolf]

Very interesting. I removed the screw on my Crockett, once. Since then I have been cleaning without removing it. I do need to check and see if it is protruding inside though. My rod gets stuck when I push it all the way in with a tight cleaning patch, maybe it is getting hung against this screw?

 

[doubleset]

My range rod won't enter that narrow(er) combustion chamber that the screw and nipple go into. As far as I can tell it's about 1" long and maybe about 0.22-0.23"-ish in diameter.

My brass range rod is about .31" diameter and it gets stopped by the lip where the chamber begins at the bottom of the barrel. I have a steel .25" cleaning rod (for .30 cal) that behaves the same way. But I have a Dewey rod for my CZ .22 (really about a .21) that will enter the chamber and go all the way to the bottom. It mics at about .190". Keeping tight to the barrel wall, I can get it to hang on that chamber lip, then center it, and it moves about 1" more to the bottom of the chamber. So your rod is almost certainly getting hung on the front edge of the chamber itself and not able to go into the chamber.

I have a nylon bore brush that mics at about 0.29" diameter and goes snuggly into the chamber and can be withdrawn without any drama.

 

[MAC1967]

This explains why the Crockett I had would grab patches and jags in the breech - it was a pain to clean if the jag was too tight I’d lose patches every time. It drove me crazy -

 

[doubleset]

Yeah. I really like the Crockett, and it's a joy to shoot. But why couldn't Traditions be more clear in diagrams and documentation about these details of the barrel/breech?

There's another issue I have with the gun which I'll just mention in passing now. The way in which the lock bolts onto the stock is pretty amateurish. It's held in place by two through-bolts. The rear one goes through the solid portion of the stock beneath the tang and its recess. It's fine. But the front one goes through a void in the stock that's a channel that the ramrod and ramrod clip are in. That channel is about 5/16" wide.

It's understandable that they've routed this void to hold the ramrod spring clip and ramrod. Drilling it from the front would be more expensive and difficult. But the result is that when you install the lock, the front bolt goes right across the top of this void. And when you tighten that front lock bolt, it squeezes the top of the barrel channel and clamps the barrel with it. So you end up with a choice: (1) tighten the front lock bolt, squeezing the barrel and putting transverse pressure on the stock, or (2) not tightening it and having the front of the lock attached only fairly loosely. If you choose (1) you've got constant stress on the stock at that point while the gun's assembled, AND you have to loosen that front bolt to get the barrel to lift free. If you clean by removing the barrel (again, as Traditions instructs you to), it's a bummer.

I was sufficiently unhappy with this that I cut a block of hardwood about 2" long to tightly fill the void above the ramrod, cut a small channel through the top of it for the lock cross-bolt, and glued it in. Now I can tighten the front lock bolt without squeezing the stock, and I don't have to loosen the front lock bolt to get the barrel in and out.

Couldn't Traditions have done this? Sure. Is it a bit more expensive? I suppose. But it can't be much, since you can mass-produce the blocks and gluing one in is only a few seconds and a couple of drops of glue. So -- not that it matters -- I'm a little curious whether the decision not to do that was based on economics or mere thoughtlessness.

 

[Grimord]

If those manufacturing plugs were truly intended to be "clean out" screws, why did the manufacturers use such poor quality screws.

That is why T/C eventually did away with the so called "clean out screw) in their breech plugs. The were constantly replacing the screws, or removing breech plugs to fix broken off screws. They went to a blind plug on the opposite side of the nipple for making their patent breech. You can sometimes make out the plug cause it doesn't take the bluing like the barrel.

 

[Phil Coffins]

Traditions are built to be a cheap entry level gun, they do that fairly well on many of their products. If you want better then buy a bit higher in the market or tinker like you have and many others do.

 

[doubleset]

That I understand. In addition to Italian-made BP guns (and better engineered US, German, Czech, and Turkish guns) I have a collection of Chinese-made brass musical instruments (tuba, euphonium, bass trombone) that I also have "tinkered with" to some degree. With Chinese made stuff the issues tend to be in the materials quality and in the "QA" (quality assurance) since the Chinese philosophy seems to continue to be that (given their labor and cost situation) it's more economical for them to replace the entire item than to think of repairing it: "Something wrong with yours? Okay, here's another one."

So I understand issues about price point, etc. But I remain puzzled when I see something that is SO easy (and not costly) to make better remain in production. I guess the broader argument is that if you can save 10 cents on each item, then if you sell 100,000 of them you've saved $10,000. And if you can do that on 10 parts of your item, you've saved $100,000. But it still seems like a false economy to me.

 

[deerstalkert]

And if you can do that on 10 parts of your item, you've saved $100,000. But it still seems like a false economy to me.

 

[doubleset]

 

[SDSmlf]

That I understand. In addition to Italian-made BP guns (and better engineered US, German, Czech, and Turkish guns) I have a collection of Chinese-made brass musical instruments (tuba, euphonium, bass trombone) that I also have "tinkered with" to some degree. With Chinese made stuff the issues tend to be in the materials quality and in the "QA" (quality assurance) since the Chinese philosophy seems to continue to be that (given their labor and cost situation) it's more economical for them to replace the entire item than to think of repairing it: "Something wrong with yours? Okay, here's another one."

So I understand issues about price point, etc. But I remain puzzled when I see something that is SO easy (and not costly) to make better remain in production. I guess the broader argument is that if you can save 10 cents on each item, then if you sell 100,000 of them you've saved $10,000. And if you can do that on 10 parts of your item, you've saved $100,000. But it still seems like a false economy to me.

Not false economy to the shareholders who want profit every month, quarter and year.

 

[enfield]

Have You ever seen such a "cleanout - plug " built in in an Original ?
I'd guess , mostly NOT .
Having had over 300 Originals in my private collection and having shot ALL of them , which seemed to be safe , I never ever noticed such a plug on ANY of my ( mostly European made ) pistols or guns .
With these , the connecting hole to the piston ALLWAYS were drilled directly from the breech/ patent breech - plug to the nipple seat / pan .

Maybe , for easening the production process , there has/had been a ( plugged ) drilling from the opposite side of the drum / nipple seat /patent breech plug , for connecting the chamber , but if present . in ALL of my muzzle loaders in my collection , this hole is ALWAYS plugged with no means for taking it out after installation , since not necessary .
Pumping hot water through the normal piston/nipple/flashhole thread makes much more sence for me , since this is/are the areas which call for REAL cleaning !
But I rarely separate my flashhole liners , since the threads in the barrel are most easily ruined !

Never forget to wipe Your barrels after cleaning and before oiling with a patch with some alcohol for binding remaining water and therefore preventing them from rust .

Rgds , enfield

 

[doubleset]

Not false economy to the shareholders who want profit every month, quarter and year.

That depends on the difference in sales and lower cost of support/warranty from providing a better quality product at a slightly higher price or even at a lower price -- since the profit involved is the net profit of the total sales of that product, and not just the profit per single item. So if by slightly lowering the margin by selling a higher quality (and more costly to produce) product at the same price, they would then sell more of the product and so increase the net overall profit for the item, that would be a win and very much appreciated by the shareholders. In general, companies do these sorts of complex analyses and projections. But when you see something that looks like a minor and very low-cost fairly obvious improvement that hasn't been done, you wonder if theydidn't consider the change because nobody thought of it, or maybe got the cost or sales projection wrong. Or maybe they really got right, and the increase in sales wouldn't justify the change. I don't know. But that's the sense in which I mean "false economy".

There's an old joke (now probably mostly forgotten) in the computer industry about IBM pricing printers. As I recall, it was from the mid-80s or so. It's along the lines of: Marketing guys provide a detailed presentation of sales and profit to a bunch of execs for a new printer. One of the execs asks "So what's the list price of this printer?" The marketing guy says "5 million dollars". The exec says "What?!! That's ridiculously high." The marketing guy responds with "Yeah, it's a high price, but the margin is so good that we only have to sell ONE." Not the best approach.