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Conical, mini or maxi, what's the difference?

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OB OBrien

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Hi, Help a newby here. I know what a round ball is but am having a time trying to figure out the difference between a conical, mini and a maxi.
I have some ,457 conical type bullets that are for my Ruger, old army revolver and some other bullets that weigh out at 370 grains.
So please explain the different nomenclature to me.
Thanks OB
 
minie type bullets expand in the barrel because of the hollowbase
Maxiball Lorenzcomprex expand through the mass inertia.
Both are accurate but the minie is sometimes a little more difficult to cast.
 
Minies and Maxies are both conical in shape. Meaning the are longer than they are wide.

Minies have a concave base which is designed to expand into the rifling grooves to impart spin on the bullet. They are just under bore size and load very easily.

Maxies have solid bases. They are designed with over bore-size bands that are designed to be engraved by the rifling as they are loaded. This, along with normal expansion from firing imparts the spin on the bullet.

Both types generally have grooves around them to hold lubrication to keep fouling in the barrel soft.

HD
 
The term "minie" is used because the man that invented them was Claude Minie, (spelling may not be correct). The term "maxie " is just a play on words, but is also a term for a conical bullet.
 
Minie bullets are also semi weight forward which allows them to be stabilized out of a slow twist barrel such as is on a 3-band Enfield. This particular gun has a 1 in 78" twist.
 
OB OBrien said:
Hi, Help a newby here. I know what a round ball is but am having a time trying to figure out the difference between a conical, mini and a maxi.
I have some ,457 conical type bullets that are for my Ruger, old army revolver and some other bullets that weigh out at 370 grains.
So please explain the different nomenclature to me.
Thanks OB

The Minie has a hollow base, the conical is generally a short bullet 1.5-2 calibers long with no hollow base. The large hollow in the Minie is the reason most shoot poorly with more than 60 grains or so of fairly coarse powder.
The cylindrical bullet is usually over 2 calibers and used mostly in slug guns. These last 2 are basically the same as the bullets used in the early breech loaders.
They rely on the bullets expansion (upset) under pressure to engrave the rifling when laoded from the muzzle. *In most cases.*
Aside from how they look they all work this way.
Conicals used in revolvers, assuming the cylinder bores are the right size are like modern cartridge bullets and do not require upset to fill the bore.
Their usefulness depends largely on design. The Minie is nearly useless except to the military.
Some conicals are poor hunting projectiles others are better. All have problems, a tendancy to move away from the powder charge is the worst. Much high breech pressure is the second.
Some are fairly heavy but often perform poorly in hunting situations.

Dan
 
Dan Phariss said:
... The Minie is nearly useless except to the military. ...
Dan

Dan: With much respect, I'd daresay there's a few tons of venison in freezers back here in the East and Midwest that weigh heavily against your "nearly useless" assessment of the minie's worth.

In a decent, properly sighted shallow-groove rifle of medium to slow twist utilizing a carefully developed load, the minie is capable of delivering accuracy comparable to any other muzzle-loaded projectile within (and beyond) practical hunting ranges. That, combined with its weight, design, ease of loading and casting, make the minie in my estimation a most useful bullet. :v
 
I'll agree with everything except the easy casting part. I've always found them to be finicky as to technique when casting. I have taken several deer over the years with them and have never had one go more than 25-30 yards after a good hit. A 450-550 grain piece of lead at a thousand or so FPS is a hard pill for a whietail to handle at reasonable muzzleloading ranges.
 
pappa bear said:
Dan Phariss said:
... The Minie is nearly useless except to the military. ...
Dan

Dan: With much respect, I'd daresay there's a few tons of venison in freezers back here in the East and Midwest that weigh heavily against your "nearly useless" assessment of the minie's worth.

In a decent, properly sighted shallow-groove rifle of medium to slow twist utilizing a carefully developed load, the minie is capable of delivering accuracy comparable to any other muzzle-loaded projectile within (and beyond) practical hunting ranges. That, combined with its weight, design, ease of loading and casting, make the minie in my estimation a most useful bullet. :v

Lets look at what a hunting bullet should be and do. We are talking BP ballistics here of course.
A hunting bullet should shoot reasonably flat to normal hunting ranges, for me this is 100-150 yards.
A hunting bullet should track straight though the animal along the hunters line of sight. It should not enter the animal then turn 45 to 90 degrees and thus miss the vitals it is aimed at.
It should be blunt. Pointed bullets, even soft ones often fail to produce the desired results.
The bullet should stay on the powder charge and not move away to form a bore obstruction.

So back the the Minie.
The traditional Mimie will not shoot flat since it cannot be used with more than 60-70 grains of fairly coarse powder. Heavier charges blow the skirt or at least bulge it. Velocity is limited to about 1000-1100 fps. This will give it a "point blank range on deer of 50+- yards. The typical 50 caliber RB will have a point blank of about 115-130 yards. Thus the hunter need only hold for the center of the deer's chest from 10 yards to 120+- and the deer is dead. Penetration? I have shot completely through a mule deer buck's chest from side to side at 140 steps with a 490 RB and 90 grains of FFFG, pentration was "adequate". While it may penetrate deeper (if it goes straight) than the RB it is very difficult to figure where to hold as the distance increases since by 100 yards the minie with the service load is falling an inch+- to the yard. It was after all designed for shooting a target about 6 ft in height. Thus if you hold for the center of the chest of a man and the bullet strikes 12" low you still get a hit. Do this with a deer and its a clean miss. Using a thick skirt minie will allow heavier powder charges but the recoil and pressure goes up and nipples may gas cut in 25-50 shots with heavy charges.
The Minie tends to veer wildly off course on striking flesh or bone. This was noted in the Crimean War and the American Civil War. British surgeons during the Crimean War noted that sometimes a man struck in the shoulder would have an exit at the hip. Whereas the old RB always went straight through. Hunting bullets that veer off course result in wounded game.

The traditional minie is pointed, it will thus usually produce a less severe wound than a RB.

The ONLY thing the minie has in is favor is speed of loading and if you place your shot well the first time when hunting this is of dubious value.

The minie has always been prone to sliding away from the powder as will most unpatched conicals.
This is why there was never an issue minie ball cavalry carbine. It was unworkable.

Thus I say the minie is nearly useless for civilian use. Even the modern heavy skirted minie still has the other 3 flaws unless fired from a much faster twist and the nose is blunted. But its still likely to move off the powder.

These are not new conclusions. The short comings of bullets in ML hunting arms has been well documented back to the 1840-50s. Its not something I just thought up.

People who have hunted with the maxi-ball report that it often fails to expand, tends to veer off course when striking animals and it takes a lot of pressure to get the velocity up.
Historically the "naked" conical and the Minie never really caught on with civilians. Most staid with the RB. It used less lead, it shoots flat and it kills well. Many did use the cloth patched "picket" bullet especially for target shooting at longer ranges.

Fast loading?
This groups was fired at 50 yards with my 67 caliber rifle, one ball was pure lead, the other was wheel weights and the third shot was with a paper cartridge with no patch on the ball. Made with a sharp taper the cartridge is torn at the base and put in the muzzle the powder drains while pulling the ramrod and one fast push seats it. Prime and fire.
On firing the paper comes off at the muzzle and shows good rifling marks. A friend reports his 69 caliber shot as well this way as with a patch to 100 yards. He reports he could shoot the second shot in 14 seconds.
DSC03691_2.jpg


You are the first person I have ever heard state that the Minie was easier to cast than a ball. The hollow base makes casting a real PITA to everyone I know.

While there are "naked" conicals that work well for hunting, at least in wound channel etc. The the Minie and the Maxi have serious flaws for this use.
The above reasons are why I stated the Minie ball is largely useless for sporting use.

Dan
 
the 'conicals' you have for your revolver are a different animal from the 'minis' for rifles.
concials were used in revolvers since the beginning of the more powerful pistols.
The Lee mold 'slugs' for revolvers have a reduced diameter 'heel' to aid in loading the slug into the cylinder chamber.
some here swear by them (as I do in my '58 Rem and ROA) and some (actually it seems most revolver shooters) swear at them.
 
Dan:

Nice group!

If I understand it correctly, your argument at its base seems to be that the roundball is superior in most, if not all, categories to a conical of any design: flatter trajectory, more dependable penetration, etc.

As we both know, the relative merits of both projectiles have been the subject of discussion and debate, not to mention flat-out, red-in-the-face arguing, for probably 150 years or so. And, although I prefer the minie, I don't have a particularly large dog in that fight. To each his own, says I.

My dispute is with your characterization of the minie as "nearly useless." As I said above, here in the East and Midwest, where many if not most whitetails are taken at less than 75 yards, that rainbow trajectory to which you refer is not nearly so pronounced.

It is, in fact negligible -- as is the concern you raise of the minie being "always" prone to sliding away from the powder. Well, yes, I suppose that can and maybe does happen, but it as been heavily discounted on this board and among those I know who hunt with, and periodically check the seating of, minies. Many mishaps can happen. Fortunately, when minies are properly sized and lubed, few do.

The problem with the whole of your argument, as I see it, is that despite the advantages you argue, the conical supplanted the roundball in black powder cartridge arms shortly after the shooting stopped in 1865. And while I realize full well this is a muzzleloading board, the word "cartridge" plays into another of your statements.

No, the minie did not become the projectile of choice in the civilian world, but there are several arguable reasons for that.

The minie was transitional technology. For one, the bullet style (more properly the "Burton" ball, after its American tweaker) was adopted less than a decade before the Civil War, in a time when the trendiness of today, pushed by a dozen gun magazines, had not taken its expensive toll on the largely poor shooting public. For another, during the war, production was consumed in both nations by military use. For a third, the development of cartridge arms during the conflict meant the minie, and the fine rifles that used it so effectively, were obsolescent by 1865. Those who wanted rifles went to Winchesters, Ballards, Henrys, Maynards and Sharps cartridge guns. That's why countless fine Springfields and Enfields were bought up and bored out for shotguns. Sodbusters and other pioneers found a shotgun far more practical than a rifle, no matter the shape of any bullet.

So the minie became, in effect, the "video" or "8-track" tape of its day -- an excellent improvement that, due to American inventiveness, had a relatively brief shelf life.

And one last point of fact in this overlong post: At no time did I state, as you apparently misread, "that the Minie was easier to cast than a ball." What I said was, "ease of loading and casting." As Casey Stengal said, "You could look it up."

When I cast my annual supply of black powder projectiles, I place side-by-side on my bench my Lyman roundball and minie moulds along with my Rapine Sharps mould. When the bottom-pour RCBS furnace and moulds are hot, it's one-after-the-other-after-the-other for about 300 projectiles an evening, pausing occasionally to reload and stretch. Fewer than a half-dozen rejects per mould per session. I'd have to say that constitutes "ease of casting" for a projectile that is far from useless.

:v :thumbsup:
 
pappa bear said:
Dan:

Nice group!

If I understand it correctly, your argument at its base seems to be that the roundball is superior in most, if not all, categories to a conical of any design: flatter trajectory, more dependable penetration, etc.

As we both know, the relative merits of both projectiles have been the subject of discussion and debate, not to mention flat-out, red-in-the-face arguing, for probably 150 years or so. And, although I prefer the minie, I don't have a particularly large dog in that fight. To each his own, says I.

My dispute is with your characterization of the minie as "nearly useless." As I said above, here in the East and Midwest, where many if not most whitetails are taken at less than 75 yards, that rainbow trajectory to which you refer is not nearly so pronounced.

It is, in fact negligible -- as is the concern you raise of the minie being "always" prone to sliding away from the powder. Well, yes, I suppose that can and maybe does happen, but it as been heavily discounted on this board and among those I know who hunt with, and periodically check the seating of, minies. Many mishaps can happen. Fortunately, when minies are properly sized and lubed, few do.

The problem with the whole of your argument, as I see it, is that despite the advantages you argue, the conical supplanted the roundball in black powder cartridge arms shortly after the shooting stopped in 1865. And while I realize full well this is a muzzleloading board, the word "cartridge" plays into another of your statements.

No, the minie did not become the projectile of choice in the civilian world, but there are several arguable reasons for that.

The minie was transitional technology. For one, the bullet style (more properly the "Burton" ball, after its American tweaker) was adopted less than a decade before the Civil War, in a time when the trendiness of today, pushed by a dozen gun magazines, had not taken its expensive toll on the largely poor shooting public. For another, during the war, production was consumed in both nations by military use. For a third, the development of cartridge arms during the conflict meant the minie, and the fine rifles that used it so effectively, were obsolescent by 1865. Those who wanted rifles went to Winchesters, Ballards, Henrys, Maynards and Sharps cartridge guns. That's why countless fine Springfields and Enfields were bought up and bored out for shotguns. Sodbusters and other pioneers found a shotgun far more practical than a rifle, no matter the shape of any bullet.

So the minie became, in effect, the "video" or "8-track" tape of its day -- an excellent improvement that, due to American inventiveness, had a relatively brief shelf life.

And one last point of fact in this overlong post: At no time did I state, as you apparently misread, "that the Minie was easier to cast than a ball." What I said was, "ease of loading and casting." As Casey Stengal said, "You could look it up."

When I cast my annual supply of black powder projectiles, I place side-by-side on my bench my Lyman roundball and minie moulds along with my Rapine Sharps mould. When the bottom-pour RCBS furnace and moulds are hot, it's one-after-the-other-after-the-other for about 300 projectiles an evening, pausing occasionally to reload and stretch. Fewer than a half-dozen rejects per mould per session. I'd have to say that constitutes "ease of casting" for a projectile that is far from useless.

:v :thumbsup:

Whatever.
Dan
 
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