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Caywood buyers beware

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I agree, however, that doesn't make fatman's feeling of being "taken" any less traumatic...

All of the responses here are basically opinions with the exception of the people who have seen/owned these guns, they can draw a conclusion based on first hand accounts...
 
These problems will continue to happen especially in guns less than $2000. Lots of blather follows- you been warned!

This custom gun business in the low end and mid-range (low end being under $1000 and mid-range being under $2000, for the sake of discussion) is a very difficult one for both buyers and makers. I really do believe the best solution for most people may be to buy off the shelf unless they are buying art peices from the top 50 makers in the country (That may seem like a lot but it's one per state, eh?).

I realize that $1700 is a pile of money for many folks, myself included. That's why I build my own! But the margin is close for anyone wanting to achieve a wage suitable for a day laborer, and not achievable for someone wanting to get a skilled wage. I've not found a way to build a plain rifle in less than 60 hours even if the hard work is done- barrel inletted, ramrod hole drilled, highest quality castings used, locks top notch, etc. It's easy to spend 15 hours in finishing metal and wood alone and that's if there's no carving or engraving.

None of that helps the customer who wants a fine gun but can't understand why a $1700 gun could have flaws. That's why going to Friendship and buying off the shelf would be a good idea, or buying from a consignment house or shop where you get to inspect the piece and decide if it's right or not. The whole "waiting business" is left out of the equation that way also.

This is pertinent to me because I am accumulating parts and beginning work on 3 guns (because it's taking me a year to get some of the parts) that will be for sale. Two are F&I War era rifles. One will have a custom barrel (custom profile, the works) and a custom lock, custom made furniture, nothing off the shelf. Plain wood, modest carving, lots of engraving, as the original is. A job like this is complicated and I'll need to get $2000 out of it. if I put it up for consignment (if it does not sell when I advertise it on websites myself) it will run closer to $2800. If I was a "name" maker, such a custom gun (one of a kind, including architecture, mounts, lock, barrel) could go to $4500 easy. I'm not a name maker, and just need to get an honest value. The other rifle will not be not far behind, having custom mounts on it, more carving, no engraving. $1800 is what I'll need. The third will be a Hudson Valley fowler, custom long barrel (in other words made to my specs) and a custom lock built from castings taken from an original. I have no idea what I can get for that one but the cost and time I'll spend will be equal or greater. It's harder to get good money for smoothbores.

The good news is this way, I get to build what I want to build. And customers will get to look at them when they are done, and agree to purchase, or not, after inspection, covering shipping, handling, insurance. The guns won't be perfect but I hope they will be perfect for someone. If not, I've got guns for myself that I really wanted to build.

I'd sure never, in my wildest dreams, go into production of a line of a few models of guns in the $1000-$2000 range. It's too hard to get parts, components, wood, barrels with consistent deliveries. I've seen dozens of these ventures fail since the 1970's. Good makers, ruined, and customers, frustrated and disappointed.

This does not happen as often (thankfully!) with high end guns, cause then it's one and done (one bad result and the maker is cooked!). Lots of high end guys have thrown away stocks, lockplates, all kinds of parts when they made a mistake or found a flaw. The mid-range guys can't eat that kind of cost and still eat food.

Done sermonizing. Sure hope it works out somehow for Fatman.
 
Dave and the rest of the guys,
I understand that what I say here will not be taken as gospel by everyone.Caywood can come to this site and dispute what I said if he wishes.I also have the letter I sent to him. For the record I was not trying to get my money back, I was just trying to get a nice lock.( by the way the percussion is listed on the site)The gun shoots very well as I said in my original post.As far as the scratches in the finish go Danny called me an ASS and hung up on me before we could get to it.I mentioned in my prior post a phone message from Danny,If there was a way to play the message on my cell phone over this site I would, and all would hear for themselves his attitude. I am a small business ower.I work in peoples homes every day.I take the time with every customer and listen to them and in turn educate each of them what I am doing and what they can expect from me.I never talk down to them, I treat each with respect. For a happy customer will give me at least on other customer, and another and another[url] etc.In[/url] 12 years of business I have never treated any of my customers with the disrespect Danny has shown to me.You can go to the Caywood site and you will NOT find anywhere on that site that says the percussion lock was going to be a modified flintlock.No where. If it had I would not be writing this.I do thank you all for allowing me to express my displeasure.
Fatman
 
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Well, I agree to hear both sides, but until I hear a lot of positive stuff, I won't be buying from Kaywood..customer service tells you a whole bunch about a company...my gun club had trouble with a riding mower bought from tractor supply, and we were not getting the service we expected...I wrote to the President of Tractor Supply, Mr. Wright, on a Monday, and by Thursday evening I had a phone call from the District Manager who gave us a new tractor on Saturday...I got a nice letter from Mr. Wright thanking us for giving them a second chance...are we all going to continue shopping with those people? You better believe it...Hank
 
Rich, if you were going to use a converted lock on a gun for some reason, I am quite sure the customer would know about it up front. I am not saying that this one did not, but he says he did not. If you delivered the gun with a converted lock without telling the customer, and they did not like it, you would either fix the problem or refund the money. If you had them send it back for lock replacement, you would not send it back without fixing the problem. We are getting the same thing here as on the last reported problem gun. Lots of folks here build guns so they give the builder the benefit of the doubt. That is not right. The customer is always right or the contract is void. That is the real world. Some of the reports we have seen here look more like dealing with an insurance agent or a used car dealer than working with an honest craftsman. That is not just in this thread either. The gun with the rust inside the barrel was defended here also.
 
Mike, then why the send it back and we will change it. Why the excuse for using the converted lock? When was that image put on the site?
 
Do I get this complaint right??? buying a repro circa 1795 gun (percussioned) will use a coverted flintlock because; ...they didn't make percussion in 1795??? Does one think any maker today of a 1795ish gun would be made new with a caplock.. :hmm:..by the way, I have never even seen a Caywood, so I don't have a dog in this fight either. ::
 
Mike, then why the send it back and we will change it. Why the excuse for using the converted lock? When was that image put on the site?
HEY leave me out of this...... I'm not sicking up for anybody here, all I did was post a stupid picture of one of Caywoods guns for cripes sake. :curse:
Danny Caywoods personality problems are his responsibility, not mine. :shake:
 
Well guys, I bought a Caywood, 62 cal rifled English Officer's. Waited 4 months, got the gun, finish superb, sparks great, great wood, shoots better than I can hold and metal to wood fit is excellent. I have paid more and got a hell of lot less.

no problem when i checked on things either, they suggest that you don't call as it takes them away from work.
 
Dave, it`s not a case of here we go agin I know the gun of which Squint speaks,I handle the gun and tried to get it to spark. It would on occasion, but very rarely, he sent it back to Caywood three times that I know of. Every time he got it back it was the same no spark. As for what happend to the gun his son has it and he uses it for a wall hanger. I can say this it`s the only caywood I`ve ever seen, but if this is an example of their work I would`nt buy one, and I`am sure caywood knows about sites like this one and monitors them closely to see what people say about his product.
Gemoke
 
Fatman doesn't like what he got. Tough luck for F. He should have investigated a little more thoroughly and ordered a style of lock more in his taste. Taste is subjective: entirely a matter of opinion and not subject to facts and logic. There is absolutely nothing a builder can do about something like that. F. admits the gun shoots well. In my opinion his only valid complaint is the finish. It looks like his complaining skills could use a little polishing. He got into an argument about how his new Honda didn't have Corvette styling and forgot to mention the scratch in the paint.
 
I agree with Rich. Better to build your own rifle, or to purchase an already finished "custom".
One of the problems with dealing with craftsman is, they are generally are not people persons. Their genius lies in the items they create.
When dealing with a mass producer of anything, they generally have people working in customer relations who actually have people skills. Thats why they are hired for those jobs.
Personally, I would not plunk down more then $1000 for anything I had not already seen. No matter what the reputation of the builder. Just my 2 cents.
 
Trigger,
You are so correct about my tuff luck. Yeah I should have investigated more, but I thought I was buying a caddie not a saturn.That is why I posted this in the first place... so someone else will have one more tool at thier disposal for investigation perpose. I did order the lock that I wanted but what you don't understand is they cut the flint pan off the lock filled the holes and left grind marks in the lock.You don't see it in pictures, not mentioned in the web site and not told to me by the owner, danny caywood prior to buying.It has nothing to do with the style, the style is what I wanted... just not the reworked holes.There is something a gun builder can do about that...honesty and customer service.
Remember those same complaining skills next time you go to a resturant and order your steak well done and it comes back rare, you complain and they tell you toooooo bad.As you say taste is subjective. Trigger, no matter what is said here, I am the customer, customer service is #1.We all have opinons. I just want the guys to be aware.
 
Sure seems like a bunch of manure over nothing. If the lock dosn't spark,re-harden the frizzen.A lot faster than mailing the gun back. A couple of scratches? Oil,steel wool and maybe a little stain a couple of minutes, done. The conversion lock is right for this gun. I get the feeling that if you manure a gold brick for some people, they'll complain that it's to heavy. I too build guns, and agree that you should't buy anything hand made without seeing it first. If you don't have the skills or knowledge to take care of problems,I'm sure you should have no trouble finding someone in our brotherhood to help you. I think it's easier to do that than belly ache and bad mouth someone who isn't there to respond. :imo:
 
It doesn't matter if the lock is correct for the gun if it is not what you told the customer and what the customer wants.
 
Dave, this is not a case of "he said" I was there and witnessed the poor performance. True, the owner did tell me that he had it back for service and that the lock had always performed poorly. After seeing it that day I had no reason to not beleive him. I said at the begining that it was my only experience with a Caywood but having had that I would not spend that kind of money to have one Why take the chance? Pathfinder, I can't believe you think it's no big deal. Just harden the frizzen, rub out the stock etc, etc. Why should he when he paid to have Caywood do just that. I tell you what, send me $1700 and I'll build you a gun then you can correct all the things I don't get right. We'll see how you feel then.. Squint.
 
Hi Guys
Well :m2c: here it is ... I would think that every transaction is or has the possiblity of being a nightmare. However Fatman has had a problem and he feels that it hasn't been resolved. Well if he feels strong enough to complain to the masses or warn them of a protental problems with asupplier... all the power to him. If he is not being above board it would come out in the wash sort of speak. So I will listen to his side and from what I have heard I wouldn't rush out to deal with this guy unless I wwas seeing possitive feed back. I haven't read were anyone has came rushing to the defense so I must take FAtman for his word... Cheers Loyalist Dawg :hatsoff:
 
"I did order the lock that I wanted"

I am puzzled here. What lock did you expect would be on the gun? It is my understanding that Caywood was a flint only operation in the past. The concept of them cutting a flintlock and doing a period type conversion to cap is new to me. Is this not what you were sold and received? Did you expect a lock that had been initially produced as a caplock? I have not seen this option mentioned by Caywood on their site.

I am sorry to seem daft, but I see the conversion as a more correct and interesting lock. I would probably be quite pleased with it unless it was poorly executed. Can you post pics of the lock?

Scratches in the finish of a new gun would annoy me, but I might work around it or send it back. Again, can you post pics?

The issue ultimately rests with the product involved. We should be able to see these details.

CS
 
Oops Fatman
Say Bud let us see some pics will yea... I apprecate that best regards :hatsoff:Loyalist Dawg
 
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