attach antler knife handle

[50cal.cliff]

I have a knife I made a few years ago. It originally had a handle made of Black Walnut from my Dad's old property, but it split. :shake: I have removed the original handle which had been pinned.
I want to use an antler as a handle to replace the wooden one. The knife is now in a rectangular shape form hilt back, approximately 1"W x 3"L. I am thinking that I need to reshape from hilt back to accommodate the antler handle. :hmm:
What would be the correct way to shape from the hilt back to allow for the antler handle and not comprimise the strength of the antler.
Explainations welcome, and maybe even a drawing or two! :rotf: :rotf: I have a couple of ideas, but I know there is a wealth of knowledge out there. Since this will be my first knife with a antler handle, thought I would try to pick some of those great minds!

 

[LRB]

Your description is a bit sketchy. Are you wanting a hidden tang, or slabs, or a partial tang? How long is the blade? How long would the antler grip be? You mention hilt, did you mean guard?

 

[paulvallandigham]

If the tang is only 3 inches long, I think its a bit too short to use with antler, unless you have a huge beam from an Elk, or Caribou.

As to reducing the size, grind the width of the tang down from 1 inch to 1/2 or 5/8". I would then weld on a piece of steel to extend that tang to at least 5 inches.

From there, you have to decide how long the handle will be, is it going to have an end cap screwed, or peened on top of the antler, are you merely going to cut the antler into two slabs, chisel or rout out the slabs to fit the tang, or are you going to drill a hole through the middle of the antler, fit the tang into it, and fill the antler with epoxy glue to store the strenth removed when you drilled the large hole. Or, you could attempt to drill a series of holes in the antler to fit the width and length of the tang, glue, and then pin it with a hole drilled through both sides of the antler and through the tang.

I too do not understand if you mean " guard " when you refer to the knife having a hilt. I am assuming that this is what you mean. The length and weight of the blade should be considered in deciding the length and diameter of the handle, as well as the length and shape of any guard. A huge, heavy handle on short bladed knife makes almost no sense. But a blade heavy knife is hard on the wrists, and hands of the user, so finding some balance point close to your guard is desireable. Having said that, I have seen some expensive custom knives that were so blade heavy that I wanted nothing to do with them. I have used similar knives, and the speed at which blisters can form on your hands is simply amazing, and something I do not wish to visit again. I modified my first Bowie Knife several years later by changing the handle, and adding an end cap made of cold roll steel. I ground down the end cap to make the knife balance at the front of the guard. The Balance impresses every person who picks up that monster!

 

[crockett]

There are a few options. Some of the old trade knives had a full tang top to bottom but of a half length. The handle was one piece with a sawn slot that the short tang fit in to and two cross pins held the blade to the handle. The tang would be visible on the top and bottom of the handle.

If the tang is flat, 3" long but not as wide as the handle, then you want to do a mortise tang. Scribe the tang on to each scale and inlet the tang between the scales and use cross pins to hold. The scales touch each other and the tang is hidden.

If the tang is 1/8" thick and 3" long and not as wide as the handle, another option if to file a stub of the tang's end and thread it. Then tap a tube that essentially turns the deal into a stick tang protruding out the back/butt of the handle.

And, you can go with the idea of making a jagged tang (file some jags) and just set it in antler with epoxy putty. I think some Japanese knives use this method.

 

[LRB]

We still need the details to give you a definative answer. As far as a three inch tang, that is plenty for any common size belt knife if you just seat it in a hole in the antler with epoxy. If it is a small knife, three inches is overkill. Randall Knives have been made that way for many, many years.

 

[50cal.cliff]

I guess I didn't explain as well as I thought I did! My terminology was wrong also! Yes I meant guard not hilt.
I had a picture of this knife when I origionally finished it, with the Walnut handle. Try as I might I can't find it! This is a pic of the knife as is. In the pic you will see some blue tape. This is approx. 1/2" in width also I have positioned a piece of allthread underneath in the picture.
I am thinking this is approx. where I want to cut down handle size down too. Also the allthread would allow me to put a brass cap on end of handle.
The origional demensions of the knife were approx. 4 3/4" tip of blade to guard and the handle was 3 3/4" or OA 8 1/2".
The knife is a skinner, similar to a Green River design. It felt good in your hand with the wood handle. I don't think it will be too handle heavy with an antler handle, as long as I don't go overboard!
Any thoughts here after I gave a little more to work with, and spelled out what I am thinking of doing?

 

[LRB]

If you want to make it easy on yourself, take the tang down to 3/8" wide, drill out your antler, fill the hole with Devcon 2 ton, slow set epoxy, and slip it on. A butt cap is not needed.

 

[wildeagle]

Wick is dead on . take the tang down , either grind or saw , use the epoxy and it will be more than strong enough. If you want it to look really right , after it sets up you could drill and pin it , not that it is needed for strength it will just look as if epoxy wasn't used. Just my .02 cents Wild Eagle

 

[paulvallandigham]

I am going to go with Wicke and WildEagle: Grind it down to 3/8, and set it in a good epoxy. If you are looking to make it "LOOK " authentic, then drill a hole through the tang and handle and set a pin in it. The pin will not be needed to hold the tang, or to add any strength. The Epoxy is more than enough. Make sure you have the handle in the correct position, when you glue the blade to it. You won't be able to make any change afterwards, unless you cut and chisel away both the antler and the glue! That means, putting the handle in a vise like holder, then inserting the blade and checking that the blade is in line with the length of the handle. You will need to check this from three directions to be sure the blade is not tilted one way or another, and someway to support the blade while the epoxy sets.

 

[50cal.cliff]

Thanks for the advice on the antler handle insallation everybody. I kinda like the epoxy and pin deal. That way I won't have to get into attaching the treaded rod.
Question just for asking sakes! How do you go about attaching your gaurds and say a threaded rod? Do you use silver solder or something else?
At the time I did this knife I had a welding shop do the attachment of the guard. I fitted slowly so it was tight enough, it had to be tapped on and off. I told him I wanted him to braze it on. I didn't know better! He told me that what I need to do was Silver Solder it. If you look the knife closely you can see what looks like bronze or brass melted into the steel of the knife where the brass meets the steel. So now I am not sure exactly what he used. I do remember him using a rod and dipping it in a jar of flux I think. So maybe it was a silver solder process. Any thoughts on this?

 

[Twice boom]

What Wick said. :thumbsup: Now if you want to take it one step further for looks, you can pin to one of the holes on the tang.. Measure carefully and you should be able to hit the hole..

T B.

 

[LRB]

Unless the brazing was done with the blade protected in water, you may have lost some hardness. The low temp silver solder, around 400o, to 430o, will not harm a blade. On the other hand, guards were not soldered in place until the 20th c. They were just tight fitted like you had it before the brazing took place. As far as attaching all thread, there are many ways. I simply grind the tang and the allthread to make a lap joint, then double pin it, peen the ends of the pins, and silver braze. The double pins should hold it without the braze just fine. The tension on it would be in the direction of a shear, and the two steel pins would, or certainly should hold it without the braze. You could also slot the allthread to slip over the tang end, and pin it.

 

[50cal.cliff]

Like I said I am not sure that it was brazing!
I distinctly remember him saying silver solder. This has been close to 15 yrs. ago. I don't remember it being a coil of silver solder. I think it was a rod and he dipped into a jar of flux. I guess what I should be asking is. Do they make silver solder in a rod form? Like a brazing rod.
As for protecting the blade he wrapped it with a wet rag to help deter heat transfer to the blade. Before the handle cracked and I decided to replace it, the knife was well used! I have skinned deer with it and never had to stop and sharpen. Always held a good edge for me. :wink:
I am asking alot of questions because I want to build a few knives. Is there a book that I could get on building knives? One that talks abut temperatures for forging and quenching? A real good beginners guide! I have picked up alot of info off the forum, but a real good guide would help. I am toying with the idea of building a forge. I have done alot of reshearch on the subject of forges and have been slowly acquring the parts I will need to build a forge!

 

[LRB]

Silver solder is commonly found in rod form. This is a high temp type, but it would seem that the wet rag did it's job.
There are numerous books on knife making. Unfortunately few deal with proper heat treat in a facual manner. It is imperative to have a basic understanding of steel metallurgy, beyond what you may hear from many smiths. I am sending you a PM.

 

[Twice boom]

Here you go 50 cal. All that you will ever need to know you can find it in the books... "The complete Blade Smith" by Jim Hrisoulas. Some of the content you'll find in the book is on how to build a forge,equip your work shop.Lotta a good stuff.... Another one by him is "The Pattern-Welded Blade..Also " 'The master Smith" Can't go wrong with any of his three books........
You can order either or at Jantz Supply. www.Knifemaking .com..

 

[50cal.cliff]

Thanks for the info guys, I am already working on checking all of it out! :thumbsup:

 

[paulvallandigham]

If you clamp the bare blade in a bench vise, the vise itself will act as a heat sink and protect the blade from over heating. Wrapping the blade with a wet rag can help, but is not necessary. Since your guard already fits tight, a little soft silver solder is all that you need to keep if from wiggling. I always found the harder part was getting the butt end of the antler to fit square to the guard on both sides, even using a table saw to cut it square. I always have to file a little off here, and a little more off there, to get that perfect fit. I now cheat a little, and put epoxy to fill the gaps along the tang, and between the tang and the guard. I am not trying to make a knife that can be passed off by some unscrupulous dealer years from now as being made in the 17,18, or 19th century! If the cost of doing metallurgical testing was cheap, or easily availabe, I would not be so concerned with frauds. However, I have seen enough fraud in the sale of guns and knives to not trust anyone selling anything these days, unless they tell me this is a newly made knife.

 

[50cal.cliff]

I know exactly what you are talking about with the vice. I have had that happen unintentionally while trying to solder. I was having a problem getting the solder to flow correctly. Turned out I had it so deep in the vice that, the vice was taking most of the heat. :thumbsup:
I now what you are saying about meeting the guard!Just a touch off can make a bad fit! Thanks for the heads up! :wink:

 

[LRB]

For the fit of the antler to the guard. Make sure the guard surface is dead flat. Get the base of the antler very close to the desired angle. Carefully file it as flat and true as you can. Lay a piece of 180 grit paper on a dead flat surface, I use a 12" square of heavy plate glass, grip the antler as low as you can, and draw it over the paper until it is dead flat, voila, a perfect fit. You must grip it low, or it will try to chatter when you pull it to you.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Good post, Wick. I have used your technique, and can concur that this is the fastest way to get an absolute square surface. Also, holding the antler low is the only way to control it. And pull the antler across the emery cloth, or paper towards you, and don't push it away from you. Pushing has a nasty habit of changing the pressure on the antler so that the portion closes to your body is pushed down more the further away from your body you push it. You are more likely to feel what your 4 fingers are doing, than what your thumb is doing.