Am I looking at a HB Indian trade rifle

[silverfox]

My neighbor just came by with an old smoothbore for me to look at. Never seen anything like it. My guess was Indian trade rifle you know stack up the beavers to the end of the muzzle.
Rifle has a reddish tinge overall almost red under ramrod thimbles. Gun is 69" long with a 52 1/2" .77 cal barrel still has what looks like original ramrod. Lock is marked Tower behind hammer and large crown in front of hammer. No other marks except for 2 proof marks which look to be English. Trigger guard is 10" long. Stock at lock is 1 5/8 wide Lock is 6 5/8 long by 1 3/8 at wide point, Frizzen is 1" wide. Front site is tall barneycorn about 6 1/2 back from muzzle. Barrel at breech is 1.30 and at muzzle is .97 . The stock is flat sided from the grip back with a flat brass butt plate 1 3/4 wide. The story was it belonged to great grand dad and is a HB trade rifle. Would this sound about right. It is in absolutely mint condition. I told him don't do anything to it but dust it off, no polish maybe a light oil on the metal although it looks like with the patina it wouldn't rust. Truely a collectors dream piece.
Fox :hatsoff:

 

It sounds like a peice of old junk with no value, however I will trade you a TC hawken for it.

 

[silverfox]

Already tried to trade. Said its been in the family so long it will stay there. I can go visit it if I want to. Did I mention it has the powder horn to go with it Square nails in the base plug no dates are names what a bummer.
fox

:hatsoff:

 

[Mike Brooks]

Get some pictures! :applause:

 

[silverfox]

Mike I'm working on pictures right now if the camera worked should have some in a day or two. Strange part is the butt stock. Where the toe plate would be it is 1 3/4 wide all the way up to the wrist and the sides of the stock are flat up to the wrist.
Fox :hatsoff:

PS: Just what would one of these rifles be worth?
ball park type of figure.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Worth? have to see it first. Sounds like a club butt fowler.

 

[silverfox]

That's my first impression. The butt is strange flat on the sides and bottom, butt plate is flat brass. Large gun. I'll keep you posted.
Fox :thumbsup:

 

[rich pierce]

It does not sound like a rifle.

 

[benvenuto]

Redish tinge? if its red paint it might be an African trade gun. These were usually pretty cheap and nasty, made with surplus musket parts but the barrels were always l-o-n-g like the original (better quality) Boucanier guns that used to be traded for slaves, ivory, and gold down the west african coast

 

[Mike Brooks]

Redish tinge? if its red paint it might be an African trade gun. These were usually pretty cheap and nasty, made with surplus musket parts but the barrels were always l-o-n-g like the original (better quality) Boucanier guns that used to be traded for slaves, ivory, and gold down the west african coast

This is what I suspect, but I'm with holding judgement untill I see pics. You never know, this could be the real deal.

 

Well, I have seen the pictures, and I would not care to hazard a guess. Interesting gun. I have not seen any of the African trade guns. The condition of this gun makes me suspicious that it is a modern parts gun made along the lines of a club butt fowler, but a "barn" version if such a thing existed (which I doubt). Hard for me to tell from the photos. Joe, you need to post these on the free photobucket site, then attach the address here for the real experts to look at it.

 

I would've suggested a Russian trade musket if it weren't for the Tower markings on the lock. That says English unless like Mike Roberts says, its a parts gun. .77 is huge for anything that the English put together for the fur trade. Most of these were in the .50-.60 range and there wouldn't be much left of a 28 guage barrel bored out to .77. I know the Russians made some large caliber smoothbores that were somewhat 'ungraceful' for the Alaskan trade. Could the lock say 'Tuva' or something like that instead of Tower?

Like the others, I'm looking forward to seeing pictures.

Sean

PS Silver Fox, I just realized I may have confused you with someone who lives in AK where such a gun is likely. If not, African is definitely a possiblity.

 

OK, I am loading a photo of the gun in question (sent to me by Joe):

 

[windwalker_au]

saw one like that in a doco on northern india and afganistan same shape to the but and they where .75 cal and biger.
bernie :grin:

 

[BEP]

And there is always the possibility that it's one of the more recent put-together guns assembled with a mixture of older parts and modern made bits and pieces (almost always the stock, plus other misc. parts) that's made for the tourist/souvenir market. Just a thought - can't really tell much from the picture.

Whatever it is, I like it!

 

[Wes/Tex]

I'm going to go with the "Trade gun" but not HB, for sure. At the end of the 19th century, many trade guns for assembled for the African and Asian continents. Very many were put together with parts from as far back as the Napoleonic Wars era, which appears to be the case here, especially if it has British military markings. England, in particular, had barn loads of these parts in store and used them for the trade guns sent out to the East. Stoeger imported some interesting versions back in the 60's using these parts and one with a 51" barrel to boot.

 

[benvenuto]

interesting gun... :thumbsup:
In my 1911 alfa arms catalogue, theres nothing quite like it but the African guns are priced between 11.50 Marks and 19.60 marks. For comparison a state of the art 1906 Mauser was 150 marks, a cheap SxS shotgun 38 marks, and a single shot .22 target pistol 31.50 marks

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

I'm going to go with the "Trade gun" but not HB, for sure. At the end of the 19th century, many trade guns for assembled for the African and Asian continents. Very many were put together with parts from as far back as the Napoleonic Wars era, which appears to be the case here, especially if it has British military markings. England, in particular, had barn loads of these parts in store and used them for the trade guns sent out to the East. Stoeger imported some interesting versions back in the 60's using these parts and one with a 51" barrel to boot.

I think Wes has hit it.

 

[silverfox]

Wes Maybe it is other than HB. I'll try to get more pictures and information. I do know they claim it has been in the family for 5 generations. That would put it back a least to the WOI. If I can find out which section of the country the family was in during that time that should help.
Fox

 

[Wes/Tex]

Wes Maybe it is other than HB. I'll try to get more pictures and information. I do know they claim it has been in the family for 5 generations. That would put it back a least to the WOI. If I can find out which section of the country the family was in during that time that should help.

It could certainly be a trade gun, that's not to take away from the gun at all. It just doesn't look like anything definitely tied to HB. The gun certainly has interesting aspects, the real story would be entertaining. The lock appears to be from a Bess of the early 19th century. If so, the marks other than the "Tower" and "Crown" should be the "arrow" designating government ownership and the "GR" designating "George Rex". Any other readable marks might help identify it as a trade piece.

Another thing I learned through a good many years in the antique business concerns the time frame of "generations". The current rule-of-thumb is 20 years per generation which would put the gun in the family's possession for 100 years. Helps put some perspective into time-frame.