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2f better than 3f in flintlock

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alabamaboy said:
I never said it was dependent on outside air I said and maintained that a loose compaction of the powder increases the efficiency of the ignition in a flintlock . Why is that hard follow if we have all the oxygen we need to fire the flintlock in the powder then why the do we poke a flash channel in the powder there should not be a need for that :) :v

Touch holes are pricked to move powder away from the edge of the TH so that more grains are exposed to the HEAT of the expanding gas from the pan.
 
Please don't mix apples and oranges. Very few Bench Rest shooters use FLINTLOCKS. They almost all shoot Percussion guns. They should COMPRESS the powder in a percussion ignition barrel.

Flintlocks fire differently, which is why using 2Fg powder often( but not always) works so much better in such rifles, provided they are of .50 caliber and greater. When you do see a Flintlock on the Bench Rest ranges, its usually a .45 or smaller caliber rifle. It makes a difference, and that difference shows up in the type of powder that will ignite the fastest and most consistently. I spent a lot of time with my .45 trying both powders, along with different loading techniques, as a percussion gun. When I got my .50 caliber, it was initially set up with a percussion lock. I did lots of similar work with it, and found using 3Fg powder gave more consistent ignition. When it was converted to Flintlock, it changed.

I blamed my inexperience shooting a flintlock for the wider groups. So I shot the heck out of it, training myself to shoot a flintlock. I asked other flintlock shooters who were years ahead of me in experience, to shoot the gun for groups.

I asked them to watch my shooting form, and particularly my follow-thru. When I changed powder granule sizes from 3Fg to 2Fg, ignition became more consistent, and my SDV went down. Groups tightened back up to what I had expected when the gun was a percussion ignition rifle. I did have to change the amount of powder to get the same velocities, and I had to add a bit more when I began NOT COMPACTING the powder when I switched to using 2Fg. I asked those experienced flintlock shooters to shoot the gun off a rest, without telling them about the switch in powders. They got tighter groups, too.

I am quite willing to accept the idea that my experience works for MY RIFLE- and that, MAYBE, its a fluke of Nature. I will give you that. The same Experienced flintlock shooters had different results with new flintlock rifles they acquired, including Don, who bought a slightly used .62 caliber flintlock, and found it shot its best groups using 3Fg powder. Don had been the most Dogmatic about using 2Fg powder in calibers over .50, until that time. He was the guy who nagged me into trying 2Fg powder in my .50 .

I have watched the flintlock bench rest shooters at Friendship, loading their guns. Those with the larger bore guns- only a few-- tip their barrels to the side, so that the powder slides down the barrel, rather than the barrel being a "drop tube", and compressing the powder. They are using 2Fg powder, too. The .40 caliber guns are used with 3Fg and they are held vertically, so that the powder is compressed. I do see them use a vent pick to open a hole into the powder charge before priming the pan, so they must see some value in doing this to improve ignition.

I didn't get names, as I was not asking questions during their relays- knowing how distracting that is to all shooters.

These are the result of my own observations, and testing with my rifle. I have followed the same procedure in loading my 29=0 ga. fowler to shoot PRBs, and both ignition is everything I could want, and the SDV is very low. Accuracy has been as good as I should expect, finding that I need either a larger diameter ball, or much thicker patching in my particular barrel! Its still a work in progress.

I accept the fact that I might be totally wrong about all this. I have been wrong before. I got over it. Its why I continue to read, and to try new things, and to test components, when I can. I freely "steal" good ideas from members of this forum, but try to remember who was the source if those ideas work out for me, so that I give them credit. Thanks to everyone for the civil discussion of differences. :hatsoff: :hatsoff:
 
(This is a reply to no one in particular.)

During all discussions like this I feel that our human senses lead us to many unfounded ideas. I just ran 20 trials Tuesday pm with 2 different locks. The fastest trial was .0343 seconds and the slowest was .0564 seconds. All these trials sounded the same. They all looked the same. The human eye and ear doesn't tell the difference between times this small.

When you fire a gun and think you experienced a slow ignition it was REALLY slow or you couldn't tell the difference. When I'm accustomed to trials that normally run in the mid .0400 seconds, I can detect a slow trial when it's in the .0700-.0800 range. This idea isn't based this weeks work. It showed up in experiments in the late 80s and early 90s.

The result of this is that you can hear a shot that sounds fast, and it could be 40% slower that the shot before or after it. AND - you don't know the difference.

The fear that I have with our sport is that we make decisions based on human senses when they aren't discerning enough to go by.

-----------

Regarding the passage of fire through a vent, I took this photo trying to determine the strength of the flame entering the barrel:

vclose5.jpg


This fire is the result of .5 grain of Swiss Null B. No powder was in the barrel. The fire even came out the clean-out hole on the right. When the fire through the vent is this strong, one could debate endlessly the need for picking the vent. I don't know the answer.

Regards,
Pletch
 
I'd like to see the same test WITH powder and ball. :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

Sorry Pletch, Just had to throw that one in there!
 
flintlock62 said:
I'd like to see the same test WITH powder and ball. :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
Sorry Pletch, Just had to throw that one in there!
If I do that I best move the camera!
Pletch
 
That was my thoughts. When the ball is compressed so is the powder. Shouldn't matter if it's 2f, 3f, 4f etc. The O2 will also be expended out through the vent as everything gets compressed. As the charge is ignited and the ball moves forward I would doubt that there is sufficient time to pull in additional O2 through the vent to fuel the burning powder. If the powder was unable to create it's own fuel powder would not work. I'm not sold that 2f or 3f is any better than the other in a flintlock. I do agree with others that it might have something to do more with bore size.
 
alabamaboy said:
Could that be right or am I on the wrong tract.
:hmm:

If your rifle is giving better ignition you are on the right track.

But the reasons for the improvement could be due to many variables.

How's that for a politically correct reaponse. :grin:
 
The problem with using two different ideologies to predict the logic of another, has issues. For instance comparing a blacksmith's forge to a flintlock firing because they both involve fire and heat may or may not be possible. Just because they appear alike does not mean they will react the same or will function the same way. They may not be parallel disciplines. I think people get into trouble drawing conclusions based on assumptions that may not have an glimmer to the fact.

BTW, I make great use of the highly accurate human “feels like” meter!
 
I find these question /answer threads extremely interesting and entertaining . :hmm: I"ve also learned many facts over the years, but it often crosses my mind what input would one of the old time mountain men or longhunters have? :idunno: They had no equipment or computers to measure any of the points of contention involved in getting the best performance from their flinters , yet I"m quite certain they achieved as good accy. as anyone today with their guns and components . :thumbsup:
 
Well you are right in one aspect and that is a forge will burn with out the add oxygen but until you introduce more oxygen you can't weld with it. When you circulate air through the charcol you get HOTTER flames in a forge in a flintlock it is the same princeable in a flintlock means faster ignition and the air circulation can only come from less than compressed load . You know what from the responce to this thread you guys have no idea what I am talking about or what I am trying to say to you . SO ONE MORE TIME IF YOU USE A LESS COMPACTED LOAD THE IGNITION WILL BE MORE EFFECTIVE THAN A COMPRESSED LOAD THINK PEOPLE THINK ABOUT WHAT I AM SAYING YALL ARE NOT GETTING IT.
 
My complements. You done many tests and found out what works in your rifle. It is satisfying to have confidence in your gun. Many folks struggle with this.

I still have questions about understanding what all goes on between pan and barrel. I'm skeptical of anything I can't put numbers on. Measuring the effect of air in the barrel on combustion is something no one has ever done before. That is reason enough to motivate me. It's something I can put numbers on.

A friend and I know how we can load a barrel with CO2 instead of oxygen in the powder charge. We can run the test both ways and find out exactly what difference there is. Learning something new in ML is what turns my crank.

I'm glad for your solution with your rifle. Now I get to work on mine. Of the two problems, I like mine best.
Regards,
Pletch
 
Take the air away from a forge and you can't weld.

Take the saltpeter away from gunpowder and you can't shoot. It is the OXIDIZER.

I hear what you are saying but I disagree with your theory.
 
Thanks Pletch, I will be looking forward to the results however they turn out ,understanding why things work has been kind of a nitch of mine the flintlock is no different,I hope I haven't offended anyone . It was not my intentions. :v
 
In chemistry we learned the law of subdivision. I think it says something like the greater the surface area ie the smaller the granule, the faster the reaction.
 
alabamaboy said:
Thanks Pletch, I will be looking forward to the results however they turn out ,understanding why things work has been kind of a nitch of mine the flintlock is no different,I hope I haven't offended anyone . It was not my intentions. :v

Alabama Boy, you have not offended me. Nothing ever gets resolved until someone acheives results. Sometimes however, those results are not what we are seeking.

Pletch: Can't wait to hear about the c02 test to see if BP WILL in fact fire without the presesnce of oxygen.
 
flintlock62 said:
Pletch: Can't wait to hear about the c02 test to see if BP WILL in fact fire without the presesnce of oxygen.

If we use chronograph averages determine results, the test will wait for warmer weather. If the job can be done inside we'd time the ignition of a charge in a stub barrel. Haven't decided yet.

The basis of the experiment is that CO2 is heavier than air, so we can fill an empty barrel with CO2 from the vent. It will fill the barrel from the breech end and stay in the barrel unless we tip the barrel and "pour" it out. Loading the barrel now leaves the load in an oxygen free environment.
Here is a link that shows idea that CO2 will stay in place.

CO2 heavier than air??

Regards,
Pletch
 
flintlock62 said:
Pletch: Can't wait to hear about the c02 test to see if BP WILL in fact fire without the presesnce of oxygen.

:wink: Does anyone else find this odd? What does the O in CO2 indicate? Where does the O in saltpeter go during the test?

If the C is carbon and the O is oxygen aren't you just adding more of the same ingredients to the BP mixture?
 
Old Salt said:
flintlock62 said:
Pletch: Can't wait to hear about the c02 test to see if BP WILL in fact fire without the presesnce of oxygen.

:wink: Does anyone else find this odd? What does the O in CO2 indicate? Where does the O in saltpeter go during the test?

If the C is carbon and the O is oxygen aren't you just adding more of the same ingredients to the BP mixture?

I'm just saying.
It does look strange, but CO2 is a gas that does not support combustion. we use it in fire extinguishers. In a fire extinguisher the CO2 replaces the air that does support combustion. That is what we hope to do with a ML barrel - replace air in the barrel (that supports combustion) with CO2 that does not.

Regards,
Pletch
 
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