18th century Smoothbore lifespan

[Artificer]

Buffalo fat can be rendered, so I'm told.

Absolutely correct and there were many Eastern Bison in some areas of the colonies during the colonial period. Many frontiersmen on their way to hunt or settle in Kentucky often mentioned them. Early Kentucky settlers also used "Buffalo Wool" to weave stockings and some other articles of clothing.

Gus

 

[billraby]

Guns made 250 years ago lasted just as long as guns made today. Take care of it and it will last for centuries. Don't take care of it and you can wreck it pretty fast. Same then as it is now. European military guns and trade guns were made in factories. But it took a lot more manual labor back then, so they were rather expensive. American guns were all basically custom jobs, without electricity. Today custom guns are a luxury. Back then they were not. That made the American guns quite expensive. I have heard that in Afghanistan they are catching taliban guys that are fighting with original Brown Bess' left over from when the British were in the area.

 

[smoothshooter]

Don't recall the sources, but I have seen at least two references, possibly three, to the lack of cleaning and pulling attachments at Ft. Neccessity. Another only mentioned how the guns became fouled and could not be cleaned without mentioning why.
Eckert may have mentioned it in one of his books as well, as well as the source documentation.

 

[satx78247]

By the time of the TX Revolution & even more during TWBTS era, smoothbore military firearms of the AWI & Napoleonic War, i.e., the Brown Bess (of its various sorts), the Harpers Ferry muskets, the French Charleville muskets & other European arms of that period were "old, used guns" & were generally about the cheapest serviceable firearms available.
(According to the curator of our Alamo Shrine, fully HALF of all civilian-owned firearms in 1835-45 Texas were Brown Bess muskets.)

For example, in February 1861 when one of the teenaged boys from our family (Richard Henry is thought to have been just past his 14th birthday at that time.) went off to war to defend our tribe against the KS raiders, his father paid 25 cents for a Bess for him to carry to training camp.
(Volunteers were told that if they arrived in camp afoot and/or unarmed that they would be sent home in disgrace. = Many a family sent their soldier off to war with the family's sole horse & firearm.)
Note: An 1862 letter home from Richard indicates that he had acquired a "modern" rifled-musket.

yours, satx

 

[azmntman]

By the time of the TX Revolution & even more during TWBTS era, smoothbore military firearms of the AWI & Napoleonic War, i.e., the Brown Bess (of its various sorts), the Harpers Ferry muskets, the French Charleville muskets & other European arms of that period were "old, used guns" & were generally about the cheapest serviceable firearms available.
(According to the curator of our Alamo Shrine, fully HALF of all civilian-owned firearms in 1835-45 Texas were Brown Bess muskets.)

For example, in February 1861 when one of the teenaged boys from our family (Richard Henry is thought to have been just past his 14th birthday at that time.) went off to war to defend our tribe against the KS raiders, his father paid 25 cents for a Bess for him to carry to training camp.
(Volunteers were told that if they arrived in camp afoot and/or unarmed that they would be sent home in disgrace. = Many a family sent their soldier off to war with the family's sole horse & firearm.)
Note: An 1862 letter home from Richard indicates that he had acquired a "modern" rifled-musket.

yours, satx

ff but I wonder what the teenagers back then complained about? this generation is SO spoiled. :shake:

 

[tenngun]

Seems there was this guy in, I think it was Europe that complained about how spoiled today’s kids were.... sop, dot soc that’s it Socrates :haha:

 

[satx78247]

What you may well be missing is that for Native American families sending a warrior off to war, in defense of family, clan & tribe, absent the best that the family was able to do for him, would mean "a huge loss of face" & the family's HONOR.
(After the family's obligation was fulfilled, the family would then worry about replacing the horse, saddle/tack & other accoutrements, necessary for the boy "to follow the warrior's path".)
It has nothing whatever to do with being/not being "a spoiled child".

yours, satx

 

[satx78247]

CHUCKLE.

yours, satx

 

[azmntman]

You misread me. Was thinking they had so little to begin with, war or no war, horse or no horse. Kids these days throw a tantrum if the "nets down" while they are playing a game about killing cops. Google the freak out kid (you tube). LOL

Ya I would respect and participate in the Honor of Family. And believe you me if I was sending my son to battle he would be toting the best weapon I could offer and riding the best animal we could scrounge atriot:

 

[satx78247]

For those who may be wondering, CPL Richard Henry Red Fern, late of Company A, Cherokee Mounted Rifles served from February 1861 until he returned home to Delaware County, I.T., after his unit demobilized in Sebastian County, Arkansas in May 1965.
His Confederate States service record indicates that he received a total of four wounds during his military service.

After TWBTS, he farmed, married a widow named Elizabeth Mary (nee: Hawkins) Thomas in 1872, sired 6 boys & 5 girls by her & passed away in July 1915. He, according to the 3rd Friday edition of THE GROVE SUN, was buried on the Sunday following his passing in the Methodist Cemetery in Grove, OK.
(All else that is known of his life is that, at the time of his passing, he was a "member in good-standing" of the U.C.V. & of THE WAR CLUB SOCIETY of OK.)_

yours, satx

 

[satx78247]

UNDERSTOOD.

Pardon me for believing that even 14YO boys of the 19th Century were MUCH tougher & more dedicated to family, clan & tribe than any of today's teenagers are likely to be.

ADDENDA: Our combined family from AL, MS & I.T.(OK) sent off a total of 28 boys/men to follow the Starry Cross flag. Nine of them returned alive from TWBTS.

yours, satx

 

[Artificer]

It just occurred to me I did not know when Santa Anna purchased the Brown Bess Muskets for his army. According to the following and some other web sites, it seems these arms were purchased in the mid 1820's and included some British .66 caliber "Carbine" Models as well. http://www.sonsofdewittcolony.org/adp/history/1836/the_battle/the_weapons/mexweapons.html

Though these muskets were still being manufactured the same way as in the 18th century, I do not know if the Barrels, Lock Plates and some other parts were still being made from Iron OR if they had switched to steel barrels and lock plates by that time? Steel barrels, lock plates and other parts would have lasted longer than those parts traditionally made of Iron (and case hardened in the case of lock parts, but not the barrels). I suspect if they were East India Company Muskets/Carbines, they may still have been Iron barrels and lock plates, etc., though.

Gus

 

[satx78247]

Not only do I not know what/when exactly that the Mexican Army bought from the UK but I also don't know where one would start looking for the actual procurement records, even if such records still exist somewhere.

Given the poor quality powder that the Mexicans bought, as well as other items of issue that were evidently purchased because of low price alone, I would GUESS that the Mexican supply officers likely bought whatever was cheapest.

yours, satx

 

[azmntman]

UNDERSTOOD.

Pardon me for believing that even 14YO boys of the 19th Century were MUCH tougher & more dedicated to family, clan & tribe than any of today's teenagers are likely to be.

ADDENDA: Our combined family from AL, MS & I.T.(OK) sent off a total of 28 boys/men to follow the Starry Cross flag. Nine of them returned alive from TWBTS.

yours, satx

I am sure. The majority (?) of todays teens have no loyalty gene...been eroded I guess?

And come to think of it the kids were being married off in early teens back then so maybe (surely) they matured way before todays youth (which can take from 16-45 yrs :haha: )

 

[tenngun]

I wonder what the Mexican army was armed with. Not only in the War of Texan independence but later in the Mexican war. One would think Spanish arms were still in use (?)French and Spanish arms should ( could ) have been sold after the Napoleonic wars.
We know of third model bess with Mexican seal on the lock, but I wonder how uniform their arms were.
After all even with the USA greater manufacturing the north was unable to supply the needs of its men.
For that matter the UK stood alone for about two years against Nazi Germany, but they did use a lot of American arms to fight with.
Socially we have said for some years of let kids be kids, not to many years ago kids was the time one learned to be an adult. Now we have adults who are still kids. I think a lot of the heroics of 12,13,14 year old mishipmen and army ensigns.

 

[satx78247]

I suspect that you're correct about no "loyalty gene".

The Woodland tribe's girls were usually married by contract by the 2 mothers & grandmothers by age 16, with the approval of the Clan Mother.
(The Bride Price paid, which was usually paid in horses, depended on the perceived future worth of a girl as a wife, mother & manager of the family's future earnings.)


Young males only married when they had acquired enough horses (and later cattle/cash) to afford a wife (or wives), so they tended to marry in their late teens or early 20s.
(Traditionally, Woodland men owned nothing but their horses, clothing, saddle/tack & their weapons. Their mother owned everything else that he might have until he married. Once they married, their mother gave everything that the son had acquired to his bride. - This WISE system assured that the loss of a warrior did not leave the wife(s) & children bereft/pitiful, if a warrior died in battle, of disease or of accident.)

yours, satx

 

[satx78247]

I wonder what the Mexican army was armed with. Not only in the War of Texan independence but later in the Mexican war. One would think Spanish arms were still in use (?)French and Spanish arms should ( could ) have been sold after the Napoleonic wars.
We know of third model bess with Mexican seal on the lock, but I wonder how uniform their arms were.

I wonder if we will ever know the full answer to that question but we do know from period documents that the Mexican Army surrendered many "stands" of Brown Bess muskets after the battle of San Antonio to COL Milam's forces.
After San Jacinto, the Texas Army also confiscated a great many more Brown Bess muskets, (formerly English) smoothbore carbines from the Mexican Cazadores & numerous Baker rifles.

GEN Houston's forces captured so many muskets/rifles/words/horses/saddles/tack & other equipment from Santa Anna's Army that "departing militiamen" were offered all the firearms/equipment that they wanted to & could carry back to their homes.
(I've seen no period document that indicates that any Spanish, French, Dutch or other "foreign-sourced firearms" were captured by GEN Houston's forces, though any such other weapons that may have been captured, simply were not listed.)

yours, satx

 

[RAEDWALD]

The guns sold to Mexico would have been in iron, case hardened where necessary. Steel was expensive and variable. Steel barrels came in after the rifle musket times for military guns. Sniders were made from Enfields and it was not until they ran out of interchangeable Enfields that Ordnance went over to steel barrels in the 1860's.

 

[54ball]

This same song and dance is said every generation. Most notably big articles in publications like the Saturday Evening Post about how.....
Soft
Lazy
Disloyal
Self absorbed
Aloof
Privileged
Weak
American youth are.
This was from 1938-1940.

It's the boy's job. Those little boys and that's what they are... then and now will do their duty like they always have.

The real question is.... Can we lead them? This means looking more in the proverbial mirror.

This will ire many but if you think about it, it's the truth....

The so called "Greatest Generation" was well led. What made them the "Greatest" was how they were led.
Did they lead as well as they were led?

You see these little boys boys need men... real men to lead them. Men that love them. Men that will not waste them. Men that will make a new Greatest Generation should the need arise.

We do not have a crystal ball. Unlike history where things are 20/20....
When you see that little punk texting... playing computer games.... acting a fool at ball game.... playing the ball game...zooming around in thier poot sounding cars... bagging your groceries and smashing the bread ....

That same kid and many more like them a year from this very day... could be face down on a beach or in a ditch somewhere with a rifle in thier hand. Doing what.... little boys do and will continue to do.

Let's just hope they are well led.

 

[azmntman]

EXCELLENT point! :thumbsup: About the best written I have seen!! and spot on

I recall being about worthless to my dad. My son followed suit. HOWEVER I have one of the best work ethics around. AND SO DOES HE!

I recall whining hard about mowing the yard. Didnt bother me a bit though soon as I got done to drags Dads lawn mower several miles and mow 3-4 more :haha: I used to describe my son as being like an old McCullogh chain saw. Harder than heck to start but once it was running it would work all day! He is a highly sought after employee now and can pretty much write his own ticket. Once I woke him to help cut wood, his response "ah daaadd cant I buy ya a cord?" :haha: Shoulda took him up on it!