1860 Colt vs. 1858 Remington

[Rfp10000]

Why did manufacturers of original guns like Colt stop making open top style revolvers (other than as replicas)?
The latest one I found was 1872 Colt.
I was curious if there is any written history on this.

 

[AlexB]

No worries I am sure you will prove the world wrong and in no time at all everyone will switch back to the colts.

 

[45D]

Why did manufacturers of original guns like Colt stop making open top style revolvers (other than as replicas)?
The latest one I found was 1872 Colt.
I was curious if there is any written history on this.

Ease of manufacturing + less hand fitting.

Mike

 

[Smokerr]

Yea I would put that as a costly option with costs to keep it working vs easier and less costly for the alternative.

The Wrights got us into the air with Wing Warping, but long term ailerons were the better answer, but you can't argue with the Wright Brothers getting an aircraft into the air and ideas of how to make it work better came alone (usually the tail in the rear)

Like the Wings, locking bolt, the hand advance were inherent aspects that are used to this day.

 

[GYJ]

No worries I am sure you will prove the world wrong and in no time at all everyone will switch back to the colts.

Do you have anything to support your rhetoric other than old wives tales and outdated conventional "wisdom"? That's kinda the point of our little experiment. Lots of potentially outdated info and opinion but little substantiated fact.

 

[Relic shooter]

If I remember the original 45 Colt black powder loading had the capability of taking out an Indian pony at 100 yards. That loading had a 255 grain lead bullet at some where around 800 FPS. If I need more than that I will get a rifle!

Good point !
The early military Single action Colt .45s were also sighted for 75 yds, same as their percussion predecessors.
Later when they went back to the armory for rehab & shortened they were tweaked to impact at a much shorter range.

 

[Rfp10000]

Ease of manufacturing + less hand fitting.

Mike

Has anyone tried changing from the wedge to a bolt / screw to lock the barrel to the frame on an open top to make the connection fixed rather than the more fluid positioning that can happen with the wedge. Again, just curious.
I’m assuming your fixes makes the barrel / frame connection fixed so the positioning is the same each time as opposed to some of what I read about positioning being set by how far the wedge is pushed in.

 

[45D]

I’m assuming your fixes makes the barrel / frame connection fixed so the positioning is the same each time as opposed to some of what I read about positioning being set by how far the wedge is pushed in.

Your assumption is correct, the wedge is a simpler device ( won't strip like threads in the frame or bolt/screw/ nut ). The wedge imparts constant tension (fore and aft) as long as it's in place ( which is why it should be driven in rather than hoping it will maintain position as a "gap setter"). The whole design keeps the setup consistent.

Mike

 

[Bad Karma]

Your assumption is correct, the wedge is a simpler device ( won't strip like threads in the frame or bolt/screw/ nut ). The wedge imparts constant tension (fore and aft) as long as it's in place ( which is why it should be driven in rather than hoping it will maintain position as a "gap setter"). The whole design keeps the setup consistent.

Mike

There are ways, other than the wedge/arbor slot, to connect the barrel block to the frame via the arbor. We’ve talked about this before, have you ever drawn anything along those lines?

 

[Rfp10000]

Your assumption is correct, the wedge is a simpler device ( won't strip like threads in the frame or bolt/screw/ nut ). The wedge imparts constant tension (fore and aft) as long as it's in place ( which is why it should be driven in rather than hoping it will maintain position as a "gap setter"). The whole design keeps the setup consistent.

Mike

Thanks Mike .. the stripped threads & complications with bolt/nut set up makes sense. It’s hard to put yourself back in Time when this revolver was THE high tech invention of day. There had to be a point where the designer said “that’s it… I’m done!” Given that wedges commonly held barrels in place for other guns it was probably pretty sensible at the time for a lot of reasons.
Did/do originals Maintain a fixed position for the barrel / frame connection like your fixes do?

 

[45D]

Thanks Mike .. the stripped threads & complications with bolt/nut set up makes sense. It’s hard to put yourself back in Time when this revolver was THE high tech invention of day. There had to be a point where the designer said “that’s it… I’m done!” Given that wedges commonly held barrels in place for other guns it was probably pretty sensible at the time for a lot of reasons.
Did/do originals Maintain a fixed position for the barrel / frame connection like your fixes do?

Thanks!! And, yes, that's why the arbor length is so important because that is what SETS the repetitive endshake/ barrel position with each reassembly. The wedge can have some wear (but is NOT a consumable!) but the assembly will be the same.
A mechanical design for a burgeoning mechanical age.

Mike

 

[45D]

There are ways, other than the wedge/arbor slot, to connect the barrel block to the frame via the arbor. We’ve talked about this before, have you ever drawn anything along those lines?

BK, refresh my memory, I don't remember the "others" , lol.

Mike

 

[45D]

Well maybe it was all a figment of imagination? I had posited that it might be possible to machine an interrupted thread on a solid arbor and the barrel block. I thought you had suggested Mauser style locking lugs on the end of a solid arbor with a corresponding mortise in the barrel block.

The interrupted thread is the method used by Winchester for its takedown rifles.

Oh yes!!! Absolutely!!
I DO remember that and I have talked to some others about that very thing concerning a possible 44Mag Dragoon but then it turned to just keeping the 45C (with existing barrel bore / rifling).
That set-up would also allow simple barrel length changes as well!! Definitely worth exploring as an alternative for sport /target / hunting !!
What do you think?
( of course a 7 shot 44Mag would have some cool factor!!!)

Mike

 

[Mike in FL]

Interesting . . . list a few.

M

Conversion cylinders in a modern replica make zero sense to me.
I could see converting a existing gun at the time but to do it with a modern replica really seems...........pointless for a lot of reasons.

I agree. I dearly love the 45Colt cartridge but the anemic rounds used in a conversion gun is just silly IMO, especially when we buy those Italian guns in the first place for the history and the joy of loading the old way. Can't you buy a cartridge gun that looks like a black powder cap and ball? From Taylors? Not sure. That might be the way to go for those who don't think the concept is silly. I sure don't mean to argue or put down what other people do and like; I'm just putting forth a personal opinion.

 

[Bad Karma]

Oh yes!!! Absolutely!!
I DO remember that and I have talked to some others about that very thing concerning a possible 44Mag Dragoon but then it turned to just keeping the 45C (with existing barrel bore / rifling).
That set-up would also allow simple barrel length changes as well!! Definitely worth exploring as an alternative for sport /target / hunting !!
What do you think?
( of course a 7 shot 44Mag would have some cool factor!!!)

Mike

Build it on a Dragoon frame and I think it a .44 magnum 7-shooter would definitely be possible. I‘d also be very interested in an 1861 Navy chambered in .357 Magnum. The cylinder has plenty of meat, and it would certainly prove the frame strength.

Didn't you envision the arbor permanently mounted in the barrel block while the interrupted thread is in the recoil shield? Either way, it’s a shame it may never be explored…

 

[Bad Karma]

Oh yes!!! Absolutely!!
I DO remember that and I have talked to some others about that very thing concerning a possible 44Mag Dragoon but then it turned to just keeping the 45C (with existing barrel bore / rifling).
That set-up would also allow simple barrel length changes as well!! Definitely worth exploring as an alternative for sport /target / hunting !!
What do you think?
( of course a 7 shot 44Mag would have some cool factor!!!)

Mike

And along these lines… seems Ronnie Wells mentioned the possibility of producing cylinder blanks at some point. Maybe for the ROA?

 

[John May]

Depends how big your shooting hand is. Remingtons tend to be a ‘smaller’ grip.

 

[45D]

And along these lines… seems Ronnie Wells mentioned the possibility of producing cylinder blanks at some point. Maybe for the ROA?

Not sayin nothin . . .

 

[45D]

Build it on a Dragoon frame and I think it a .44 magnum 7-shooter would definitely be possible. I‘d also be very interested in an 1861 Navy chambered in .357 Magnum. The cylinder has plenty of meat, and it would certainly prove the frame strength.

Didn't you envision the arbor permanently mounted in the barrel block while the interrupted thread is in the recoil shield? Either way, it’s a shame it may never be explored…

Well, arbor mounted "better" in the frame but the locking lugs would be on the arbor / in the barrel assy, no wedge needed (but a latch of course. Twist on/ twist off).

357 '61 hmmmmm . . . I like it !!

Mike

 

[45D]

Mike in FL,
Maybe reread my posts . . . ? I'm shooting 45acp +p's out of a belt pistol ( Army) and you're talking about anemic?? That's about 50% hotter than tier 1 45C. I'm shooting 45C+p in my Dragoons. Nothing anemic at all !! Probably better than you'll get with "factory" conversions.

If you read Ruger instructions, you may see something to the affect of "not shooting reloads" . . . you think folks are shooting "reloads" in Rugers?

Mike