1860 Armi San Paola

[Bernie Schneider]

I have a this revolver that is in need of parts and advice. I received the piece as being locked up, it was, nothing would move, barrel wedge had to be drifted out, hammer screw was partly backed out and bound. Once dis-assembled, screw threads cleaned up and frame reassembled, cylinder slid in place, it will function fine.
The problem starts when you try to install the barrel, the pins in the frame hit a 1/32 approx. above the holes in the barrel assm. Force the pins in place and start the wedge, the piece is locked again.
On original clean up the residue in the barrel indicates, the gun may have been fired with smokeless powder.
I'm thinking the cylinder pin is bent.
So I need advice on removing this pin and where to find replacement along with the trigger guard screws.

 

[necchi]

VTI Parts, Armi San Marco(?); http://www.vtigunparts.com/store/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=84&cat=ASM+1860+Army+
or Dixie Gun Works; https://www.dixiegunworks.com/default.php?cPath=22_434_435_441&osCsid=t783re7tjlfath5nqsvepvvo00
Parts are pretty generic, needing some minor fitting.

 

[Bernie Schneider]

Been to both of them, there are a lot of differences between a Marcos and Paola, frame and some screws, spent money on parts that won't work.

 

[hawkeye2]

I think you might mean Armi San Palo? They became Euroarms also Euroarms of America. They have been out of business for several years now but parts can be found. Try S&S Firearms and The Winchester Sutler.

 

[Artificer]

I don't believe Armi San Paolo every sold cylinder pins as a repair/replacement part.

If you have something like a 6" Steel Machinist's Rule (Ruler) you can lay it lengthwise along the pin to see if it is bent.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Sorry, hit the post button too soon.

Specifically what parts do you need?

Gus

 

[Artificer]

OK, here is an "exploded parts drawing" for an M1860 Colt, though it is a Pietta rather than an Armi San Paolo. At least it would be good to work off the same chart to see what parts you want.
http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/pietta-1860-army-revolver-1861-navy-revolver-parts.html

I made a point out of getting this off "Taylors and Company" Website BECAUSE their CEO, Sue Hawkins, set up and ran EuroArms of America for many years before starting Taylors. I don't know if they have the parts you need, but they might.

Phone: 540.722.2017
Monday ”“ Friday 8 am to 5 pm EST
Email us: [email protected]

Gus

 

[ZUG]

Is it possible that the barrel is from another gun? Check & see if the serial numbers match both barrel & frame. If they are the same then this is what I would do -- put it together and hang it on the wall. The gun is not worth fixing :v .

 

[Bernie Schneider]

Zug, numbers match, thinking same thing.
laid a straight edge on it but my tired eyes can't tell,thinking pin could be bent at frame.
The parts I need are the 2 frame screws and possibly the cyl. pin.
I have received no rely from Win. Sutler, will try S & S.
Winchester Sutler has the exploded diagram also.
thought about trying swapping pins from a brass Pietta frame, but didn't know how do able unthreading them was without destroying them.
Thanks for the replys, will follow up on the info given.

 

[Artificer]

Is it possible the two small barrel alignment pins are bent? This can more easily happen when someone drops the Frame, rather than bending the cylinder pin. You should be able to tell if they are bent. Also when you force the barrel onto the frame, does the bottom of the barrel align correctly with the frame? If it does not, then you have bigger issues.

Not sure how the cylinder pin is held in your frame because even the same maker/s did not do it the same way all the time. Sometimes the frame was "upset" or peened so the pin threads would lock in place at the rear of the thread. Some times they used an interference screw fit. When confronted with a loose cylinder pin for most models and there was nothing else wrong with the cylinder pin, we usually used a low temp silver solder to hold them in place.

So before you go trying to pull that cylinder pin, I would strongly advise you find out if in fact it is bent. Do you have any Machinist Friends who could look at it for you? If the cylinder pin is not bent, then the threaded hole in the frame may be "Off Center" and that would be difficult to make up for. It is possible the cylinder pin could be re-bent and used by adjustment with a rawhide mallet, Dead Blow Hammer or Lead Mallet; BUT that is far outside what most home hobbyists should be attempting.

I would NOT count on the cylinder pin from a Pietta or Maker other than Armi San Paolo, to correctly fit your frame. In your shoes, I would call the Service Department at Taylors & Company and ask to speak to their Gunsmith. He probably will know if the two are interchangeable, more so than any of the other Sutlers.

In case you can't find the parts somewhere else. I dug out my box of original, brand new EuroArms Inc. M1860 parts. I do not have the cylinder pin. I do have a fairly good selection of frame screws, BUT you have to use the exploded drawing to give the numbers of the screws you need. If interested, you may send me a PM.

Gus

P.S. Here is a link to the Euroarms parts that S&S stocks for your revolver.
http://www.ssfirearms.com/products.asp?cat=111

 

[Stophel]

A very real possibility that the arbor is bent.

Is this a steel frame gun or a brass one?

I know for a fact that it is surprisingly easy to bend an arbor around in a brass frame gun (actually the frame can bend more than the arbor itself). I think it probably would not take too much to knock even a steel framed arbor out of whack too. :wink:

 

[Artificer]

A very real possibility that the arbor is bent.

Is this a steel frame gun or a brass one?

I know for a fact that it is surprisingly easy to bend an arbor around in a brass frame gun (actually the frame can bend more than the arbor itself). I think it probably would not take too much to knock even a steel framed arbor out of whack too. :wink:

Just to be sure what part you are talking about when you wrote "arbor," do you mean the cylinder pin that is shown in the following link as Part C-10-A Cylinder pin?
http://winchestersutler.com/Part.html

Gus

 

[Bernie Schneider]

Yes it is as steel frame, used a hardwood wedge to move pin up, went a little to far and had to bring it back down, it assembles easily, doesn't bind.
It still has issues, so I think I will set it aside for awhile or leave it as is, don't know yet.
thanks for all the input, neither sutler had correct screws or any at all.

 

[Stophel]

Yes. The round shaft that the cylinder revolves around is the Arbor. That's always been the standard term, at least in my experience. :wink:

 

[Artificer]

Yes. The round shaft that the cylinder revolves around is the Arbor. That's always been the standard term, at least in my experience. :wink:

OK, just wanted to make sure you were not talking about some other part on the revolver and I did not understand correctly. Having completed S&W Armorers Academy courses, I tend to revert to their terminology. When someone uses Colt terminology, I often have to stop and think or break out a parts diagram. :haha:

Gus

 

[Stophel]

That seems to be the term usually used by cowboy action type gunsmiths. I believe the original Colt term is "base pin".

Now I'm scouring the internet looking for some original 19th century Colt parts diagrams to see what the original part names were.... I can find diagrams and patent drawings, but NO ONE seems to want to also show the parts listings that go with "fig. 11" or part "A".... :cursing:

 

[Zonie]

A Colt Patent drawing states the rod the cylinder rotates on is called an "arbor".

If you folks have Adobe installed so you can open a PDF file, follow this link
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/USX9430.pdf

Notice in the written description on the first page, right hand column, 9th line down it says,

"Fig.1 is the arbor on which the cylinder revolves..."

On the other hand, Dixie Gunworks Catalog clearly says this same part is the "cylinder pin" in their exploded drawing showing of a Colt pistol.

Now, who are you going to believe?
Sam Colt's Patent description or Dixie Gunworks? :hmm:

 

[Artificer]

I looked for Colt's Patent Drawings last night and didn't find that. Good for you. :thumbsup: :hatsoff:

OK, well IF one has an original Colt, then that part is the "arbor." If one has a reproduction Armi San Paolo of the M 1860 Colt, then that part is a "Cylinder Pin" because that is what they and EuroArms called it. :rotf:

Just like what is the difference between a "Crane" and a "Yoke?" Depends on who made the gun. :haha:

Gus

 

[Bernie Schneider]

So after almost 3 yrs I am back to this revolver, I have a replacement frame with arbor/ cylinder pin coming. Now I am looking for just the backstrap screws, which are the same as the rear trigger guard. S&S are out of stock, Winchester Sutler seems to be gone. I have sent a e-mail to Euro arms, anyone have possible source of parts? Any info is appreciated.
The person who had the frame did not have the screws btw.

 

[Bernie Schneider]

I guess that now that I work where there is a mill shop, if need be I have the four holes opened up and threaded to accept the Pietta screws.