17th/18th Century Virginia or Virginia Associated Flintlocks

[Stophel]

Appears to be a Model 1728 Army musket (I'll presume there's a hole in the side panel where there once was a side mounted rear sling ring). According to "Battle Weapons of the American Revolution", some of these army muskets were sent to Canada to supplement the standard Marine muskets in use there.

 

[jamieorr]

The British and French mixed it up on the Plains of Abraham in 1759, perhaps some French arms made their way south after that?

Jamie

 

[Artificer]

The British and French mixed it up on the Plains of Abraham in 1759, perhaps some French arms made their way south after that?

Jamie

It's possible, though 15,000 French Muskets were captured at Fort Louisbourg in 1758, so it may have come from there as well.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Appears to be a Model 1728 Army musket (I'll presume there's a hole in the side panel where there once was a side mounted rear sling ring). According to "Battle Weapons of the American Revolution", some of these army muskets were sent to Canada to supplement the standard Marine muskets in use there.

That's interesting. Like you, I had not earlier read where Army Pattern Muskets were in use prior to the AWI. Of course, it may also have been sent over during the early part of the AWI prior to the French Alliance, when France sent a lot of older arms here sort of "under cover."

Gus

 

[54ball]

Read the description of the musket again and think about it. Somethings fishy about it.

One of the most famous American Indian leaders in colonial America,that nobody has ever heard of until now, his French import musket. Ornately inlaid with white beads with his name and the date 1750 the
same year he died. In 1746 the Governor of Virginia invited Chief Canasatego to bring his young men to the newly formed College of William & Mary for an education,
Chief Canasatego’s reply was simply “ Send me your young men for a real education “ he had previously sold land to Thomas Penn for the British to colonize Pennsylvania
and was one of the Great Indian leaders in Pennsylvania and Virginia.
Ex: Ben Michel Collection $65,000
1688-1703

Now imagine say a 1792 or contract rifle with George Washington 1799 on it. Most would not touch it with a ten foot pole. Is this a 18th Century version of a John Wayne commemorative? :hmm:

Lastly would this pattern musket be a common item in Virginia? :hmm:

Way too much smoke for me.

 

[Artificer]

I had previously read on many occasions that Ben Franklin recognized the idea of Uniting the 13 Colonies had come from the Iroquois Confederation. Prior to this thread, I did not know in the 1740's he printed "Excerpts from speeches by Canassatego" made during Treaty Conferences beginning in 1742 in Philadelphia and that idea was proposed to the English to form their own confederation by Cannassatego.

Though Wonkypedia, this link appears to be well documented and gives information on the "Chief." I looked at some of the references and other links as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canasatego

So IF True provenance of this Musket could be attributed to Cannassatego, it would be a valuable relic to be sure. However, seed beads spelling out his name could have been added at any time as a "commemorative" or as an outright fake.

Gus

 

[54ball]

Very true.
For the money that's being asked, I would expect a legitimate paper trail about that musket going all the way back to the 18th Century. A written chain of evidence, otherwise it's just a neat old musket with decoration of unknown origin.

For a couple thousand...OK but the asking price for that musket is the same as mortgage on my house. For that kind of money I would expect some definite proof.

 

[Artificer]

Very true.
For the money that's being asked, I would expect a legitimate paper trail about that musket going all the way back to the 18th Century. A written chain of evidence, otherwise it's just a neat old musket with decoration of unknown origin.

Agreed!

For a couple thousand...OK but the asking price for that musket is the same as mortgage on my house. For that kind of money I would expect some definite proof.

Absolutely!! Actually if no documentation is proven, then in my mind the gun is worth LESS than had it never had the seed beads added.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

However, in at least one case, it was proven to me that added "Incorrect" ornamentation to an original gun actually wound up making the gun more valuable.

At the Booth I worked in at the NSSA Nationals, one time in the 1980's a good buddy brought in a M1822 Springfield Musket in original Flintlock for sale, BUT the stock had been inlaid in silver and mother of pearl in the Arabian Jezail manner. He thought it was great and though I did not tell him outright, I thought it was a shame someone had modified it that way. He put a price WAY higher on it than I would ever have asked and more than if the gun had not had that "decoration" on it. I figured he would not sell it.

A couple of days later, one customer came up and offered him a large part of his asking price for just the unmodified barrel and lock. So after my buddy agreed, I took the barrel and lock off. Then my buddy put a price of $250.00 on that stock and put it back on the wall. I almost fell over two days later when another customer came up, looked at it, read the label as to which gun it came from, asked a couple of questions and laid the price in full out in cash. My Buddy had actually sold it piecemeal for even MORE money than I or anyone else thought it would sell for.

Just goes to show one can not always figure what an original piece will actually sell for when "just the right guy or guys" show up.
Gus