17th/18th Century Virginia or Virginia Associated Flintlocks

[Artificer]

I came across this PDF link and thought others might enjoy looking at the guns mentioned below.

Disclaimer: I am in NO WAY associated with Mr. Gary Hendershott. Actually, before I found this PDF, I had never heard of him. I make NO claim the advertising information is correct and actually believe it is mistaken in at least two of the guns mentioned.

I am sorry I do not know how to post a link to an online PDF document. So I have to suggest you google the below information:

PDF]
American Revolution - Gary Hendershott Logo garyhendershott.net/images/_ghendershott/.../11-2014_Catalog.pdf

This one has me puzzled, I do not know why it is called a Rifle as there doesn’t appear to be a rear sight on the gun. Maybe a Carbine/Fuzee? Still, it is a neat early piece.

Lot 14 1685 “King James II” era rifle made by Brooke in London 1685 “King James II” era rifle made by Brooke in London ca. 1685. A remarkably rare British Colonial rifle made during the short-lived reign of James II, 1685-1688. The lock plate is marked “Crown & JR” (James Rex), British proof markings on the barrel, which is octangular at the breech, then 16 faceted sides at center to a flared muzzle. Certainly one of the rarest British Guns to make its way to America. It is completely untouched, original flint condition. Ex: Don Bryan. $75,000

Lot 4 The Foord guns - finest that exist in the New World of America 1 of the 100 Best British Guns in Existence, John Foord, Williamsburg, VA 1714 Magnificent pair of Queen Anne era Brass Barreled Blunderbuss pistols made by James Turton 1690 -1710 and presented to William Foord of Williamsburg, Virginia on May 4, 1714, one with swivel mounts indicating ranger use on horseback. Each weighing over three-pounds each they are amazing weapons used in the British Colony of Virginia, Foord is on the Tithing tax rolls of Williamsburg. They are illustrated in Great British Gun Makers 1540-1740 by Neal & Back on pg. 362. Amazing weapons with 7 inch flared barrels and the finest that exists in the New World of America. Ex: Peter Finer $125,000

This next one I question the “Virginia Ranger’s Rifle” description that seems only due to the sling swivels on the rifle. German Rifles and Germanic influenced rifles somewhat commonly had slings and not just for use on horseback. Still, it is a neat rifle of this vintage.

Lot 28 1740 Virginia Ranger’s Rifle ”“ Shenandoah Valley 1740 Virginia Ranger’s Rifle ”“ Shenandoah Valley. A rare Virginia Rifle with swivels for horsemen; they were the very first cavalry in the Colony of Virginia. This is one of the rarest Virginia guns in existence and believed to have been made in Augusta County, Virginia ex: Tom Booker, Winchester. $75,000

The following is not a Virginia gun, of course, but early enough to be interesting?

Lot 30 Chief Canasatego leader of the Iroquois British Colony in Pennsylvania his inlaid musket 1750 One of the most famous American Indian leaders in colonial America, his French import musket. Ornately inlaid with white beads with his name and the date 1750 the same year he died. In 1746 the Governor of Virginia invited Chief Canasatego to bring his young men to the newly formed College of William & Mary for an education, Chief Canasatego’s reply was simply “ Send me your young men for a real education “ he had previously sold land to Thomas Penn for the British to colonize Pennsylvania and was one of the Great Indian leaders in Pennsylvania and Virginia. Ex: Ben Michel Collection

Here’s a rifle I thought a lot of folks would enjoy seeing.

Lot 36 Shenandoah Valley Flintlock Musket ca. 1790 Rifle made by John Crummy - Harrisonburg, Virginia in the Shenandoah Valley, Virginia in the 1790’s this is the finest “Master Gun” ”“ of this Shenandoah Valley gunsmith. In original flint, it’s stock is ornately incised and carved and still retains 70 percent blue on the barrel. It has an exquisite brass patch box. Originally discovered in 1928 by Elmo Jones of Richmond, Virginia it has never been on the market before, bought from Elmo in 1975. The armorer at Colonial Williamsburg has written a letter stating it is the Master Gun of this maker.

Gus

 

[Elnathan]

Try this link:
Catalog

I note with some wryness that they refer to the VA rifle as a "musket" - I think that you are probably right to be skeptical of their other claims! Still, very interesting. I like that jaeger a lot, though I'd be curious to know why they think it was made in VA and not Europe...

 

[Artificer]

Thanks for adding a quick link for the PDF !!

Good point about the "Virginia" Jaeger. I like it a lot as well, no matter where it was made.

Gus

 

[Stophel]

Ok, I will only say one thing:

Where did they come up with the idea that this was a "Virginia Ranger's Rifle"???

It has every appearance of a South German rifle (like Bavaria or vicinity) of the 1730's-1740's.

I will refrain from posting any other opinions or conclusions...

 

[Elnathan]

Ok, I will only say one thing:

Where did they come up with the idea that this was a "Virginia Ranger's Rifle"???

It has every appearance of a South German rifle (like Bavaria or vicinity) of the 1730's-1740's.

I will refrain from posting any other opinions or conclusions...

My first reaction was to wonder if perhaps the stock is maple, and they are assuming that any maple-stocked rifle has to have been stocked here in America. Doesn't look like maple to me, though. More than likely a combination of family tradition that was just a little too good to verify and wishful thinking.

I like the comb on this one, particularly with the slight belly to the stock, and the tang carving. Is that a South German distinctive of the period?

 

[Stophel]

With German guns you don't really have the very distinct, regionally limited "schools" like you have with American rifles (with a few exceptions), but I have found that there are some generalities that tend to hold true. It's hard to explain, and probably impossible. You just have to study the guns and eventually you might start to get a "feel" for how things were done in different areas.

This very bulbous form of butt with a straight wrist, rounded down comb nose, and protruding heel is a very South German trait, from one end of the Main River to the other and points south. (Though the protruding heel is also seen on Dutch guns.) The styling of the lock (from what little I can see in the picture) makes me think "later", like 1740, but otherwise, it fits in fine with the 1720's. (It's also a brass lockplate, if you will notice.) ASSUMING it is the original lock... I'm looking as closely as I can at the photo, I now get the impression that maybe there is "extra" inletting around the lockplate (??? Hard to say, maybe just shadows).

The gun just has the appearance and "feeling" of a gun from Bavaria or perhaps Baden-Württemberg, Würtzburg, or somewhere like that. Put this gun in a German auction house and it would immediately get the label of "Süddeutsch" (South German). The carving behind the tang, which is relatively simple in design, fits well into a South German context. I would love to see the cheekpiece side... and wouldn't be surprised if I found the black and white star there.

The rifle has its triggers and triggerguard set VERY far to the rear, which, frankly, makes it quite awkward in appearance. You see them that way every once in a long while. The rear set trigger must be extending very far forward ahead of the front needle trigger. The barrel is also relatively long, looks close to three feet.

(I'm trying to be as diplomatic as possible...) :shocked2:

 

[Stophel]

I'm trying to come up with some photos of somewhat comparable guns that I have permission to share... I have a couple of real good ones, but I don't remember where I got the photos, and I don't want to make public anything that might have been intended to stay private! :grin:

This is swiped from Hermann-Historica, and is another representative "Süddeutsch" rifle, this one being a bit later in appearance (1750's or so). It has lost some of the overall mass and "bulbosity" of earlier pieces, but the basic form is still there. This one also has a relatively long barrel, and has a bench hook in lieu of the front sling swivel, which means it was used as a target rifle.

:wink:

By the middle of the century, South German rifles began to be influenced by Austrian guns from the East, and to a lesser extent, French guns from the West.

 

[Artificer]

I truly enjoyed reading your comments. Thank you for adding them.

That protruding point on the top of the butt plate is something that has intrigued me on German and other "Dutch" guns as you mentioned. Did they mean for that to go over the shoulder or was the buttplate meant to go out on the arm? I don't think I would want to shoulder that rifle with that protrusion in my shoulder!!

Gus

 

[Stophel]

It will kinda go on top of the shoulder. You generally only catch about the bottom half or so of the buttplate in the shoulder anyway. :wink:

I personally don't like a big protrusion at the heel like on the "Ranger" gun, it interferes with mounting the butt to the shoulder, but shooting would pose no problem.

 

[54ball]

Thanks Gus,

I enjoyed looking at those items and I find them interesting, especially the James II piece.

Now I am no expert by any sense of the word but....

Well the best way I know how to put it, I have studied these old guns as much as I can. Very few have I seen in person, even so I get a feeling when I study one. I can smell the wood smoke, the history...like its telling me something. The Ranger Rifle is telling me it's not real especially for a Colonial rifle.
I guess that was my Chief Dan George moment. I got some rock Candy too, but it's not for eatin.

Is it just me or is the Canasatego musket a 1763 pattern or possibly a 1795 Springfield?? I know he was sending the kids to school and all that but why would an Indian Chief want his name written on his gun in English with seed beads?

If it was a white presentation piece to the Chief, seems like it would have an engraved thumb piece or something like that.

Neat stuff but maybe questionable.

I may be just showing my ignorance.

 

[thecapgunkid]

Ever go over to E-bay and see the ..."rare"..."vintage"...or...."Look" tag because the item was being sold by someone who was a little long on speculation about marketability and short of knowledge?

I betcha the Ranger tag on this thing was put there by someone who read our lengthy thread about shortening musket barrels and Rogers Rangers...

Really nice looking gun, tho. I'll keep an eye on it if it ever comes down to, say, 2,500....Ya think??

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The Ranger Rifle description mentions "mounted troops". Maryland in the 17th century and into the beginning of the 18th century sent out companies of men on horseback, armed, to "range" up and down the Potomac River to seek out lost cattle, and to keep track of any "incursions". It's possible that this rifle was carried by a member of a Virginia counterpart company sent out to "range" and thus is now called a "ranger rifle".

I like Lot 33 the British flag, because it shows the proportions are not symetric...I will have to get one made, though I may go with linnen...I could imagine on a wet day, that stops raining but gets windy wet, wool bunting might be tough for the Ensign to handle...

LD

 

[Artificer]

The only piece that has any provenance offered in the advertising is the 1790 Virginia Rifle. None of these guns are in my price range, but if they were, I would want serious documentation proving them to be what was advertised before I spent that kind of money.

Will have to look at the "Chief's Gun" a little closer now that I'm more awake and with what you wrote. I know seed beeds were sometimes added to muskets, but that is about all in my personal knowledge.

Gus

 

[rich pierce]

Optimistic pricing.

 

[Artificer]

Optimistic pricing.

:rotf: :thumbsup:

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Is it just me or is the Canasatego musket a 1763 pattern or possibly a 1795 Springfield?? I know he was sending the kids to school and all that but why would an Indian Chief want his name written on his gun in English with seed beads?

If it was a white presentation piece to the Chief, seems like it would have an engraved thumb piece or something like that.

I am NO expert on French Military Muskets, but I don't believe this gun is a M1763 French or M1795 Springfield Musket due to the style of the butt stock and especially the front stock band.

I could not find a link to a real/original M1746 French Musket that showed the entire musket.

However, this link shows the fore ends of French Muskets and the M 1728 front stock band looks like the one on the "Chief's Gun" much more than the M 1763.
http://www.jaegerkorps.org/NRA/The Revolutionary Charleville.htm


Is the "Chief's Gun" merely a M 1728 or M 1746 decorated with seed beads?

Gus

 

[54ball]

Gus,
I am not an expert on French muskets either but here is what I see.

Note the stepdown of the lower forestock wood just ahead of the first (lower forestock barrel band) this feature seems to be seems to be common on the 1763 and it's clone the 1795.

The stocks on the earlier and later french muskets like the 1777 tend to have a straight taper and not this step just ahead of the first band from the lock. The musket pictured above has this step ahead of the first lockside barrel band but it is not as obvious.

I agree it has the earlier front band but that seems to be an easy modification...Could be a composite of different parts :hmm:
The combline and wrist could be enhanced/reshaped just a tad.

May be legit but I think it's later, a mix of 1763 type and earlier parts. Very well could be an example of a Rev War French amory rebuilt musket supplied to the Continentals. That someone enhanced with decoration....if someone did do that to such a historical example...it's a crime.

As you can see I still really doubt the decoration. Who knows some 14 year old could have done it in 1846.

 

[Artificer]

What makes me fairly sure it was not a M1763 is the "step down" or lower shelf behind (or to the left of) the hammer. This "step down" is not on the M1763 lock, but is on the M1728 and M1746 locks. To better see what I mean, may I suggest looking at the close ups of the Locks 2,3 and 4 in this link - compared to enlarging the "Chief's Gun as much as possible so you can see the "step down" or shelf on that gun? http://www.jaegerkorps.org/NRA/The Revolutionary Charleville.htm

Yes, it could also be a composite or a restock?

Gus

 

[Artificer]

P.S. Like you, I would have to see some VERY good documentation before I believed the Seed Bead Name on the stock.

Gus

 

[Stophel]

I'm stepping out into it again...

All I will say is that my first thought upon seeing the gun is that it appears to be an Army pattern musket, not a Marine pattern musket, and to my knowledge, no French Army pattern muskets saw service in North America until the Revolution (again, to the best of my knowledge).

:idunno: