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Login Name Post: Greenland        (Topic#307837)
Richard Eames 
69 Cal.
Posts: 3695
07-19-18 02:15 PM - Post#1694104    

    In response to sheephunter

  • sheephunter Said:
I am finding that it is in very limited supply and more so use what they have, if they still have it when you arrive.



Myself, I would not book a trip unless I was "guaranteed" that powder and caps would be available and with a confirmation in writing prior to sending a deposit.

It is enough hassle flying and flying with firearms now without worrying about powder.

 
azmntman 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5810
azmntman
07-19-18 11:26 PM - Post#1694154    

    In response to Richard Eames

So true. Myself, I wont even consider leaving the states nowadays. I am starting to fear for my "rights" here let alone somewhere I cant communicate well

 
fleener 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1356
07-21-18 08:15 PM - Post#1694396    

    In response to sheephunter

I would not load shells with powder with the purpose of trying to circumvent the regulations of flying with the powder. You do not want to get caught by the US or foreign government agents doing this.

You will also not be able to mail the powder.

Fleener

 
Britsmoothy 
70 Cal.
Posts: 4563
07-22-18 01:43 AM - Post#1694414    

    In response to fleener

  • fleener Said:
I would not load shells with powder with the purpose of trying to circumvent the regulations of flying with the powder. You do not want to get caught by the US or foreign government agents doing this.

You will also not be able to mail the powder.

Fleener


IF it is legal to be able to transport loaded ammunition to Greenland then it is fine.

Where is the crime?

B.


 
fleener 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1356
07-22-18 01:21 PM - Post#1694473    

    In response to Britsmoothy

I can not speak to Greenland's regulations, only to the USA.

You can fly with ammunition for personal use. 49 CFR does allow it, see 49 CFR 175.10 - Exceptions for passengers, crewmembers, and air operators.

The airlines will have additional restrictions that they can and most do place on the traveler.

You can not fly with just plain powder, it is restricted. If you were flying with a ML and you purposely loaded ammunition with powder to circumvent the regulations for transporting loose powder and it was discovered it would be most likely an issue for you to deal with.

I know people do this and they think it is a good "work around", but it is not legal in the USA.

The below interp is from the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration (PHMSA), United States Department of Transportation. PHMSA writes the HM regs for all modes of transportation in the USA and is also responsible for issuing clarifications or interpretations for the HM transportation laws in the USA.

Here is the link to the interp and the original letter requesting the interp.

https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/sites/phmsa.dot.gov/files/legacy/i...

October 15, 2001


Mr. Larry J. Talley Reference No. 01-0216
2499 Countrywood Parkway
Cordova, TN 38018

Dear Mr. Talley:

This responds to your letter dated August 7, 2001, regarding the transportation of black powder under the U.S. Hazardous Materials Regulations (HMR; 49 CFR Parts 171-180) and the International Civil Aviation Organization's Technical Instructions for the Safe Transport of Dangerous Goods by Air (ICAO Technical Instructions). Specifically, you ask if there are any exceptions that would allow for the domestic or international transportation of black powder by aircraft.

The answer is no. The air transportation of black powder is forbidden both domestically under the HMR and internationally under the ICAO Technical Instructions. Putting the black powder into either a shotgun case or brass rifle case, as you describe in your letter, and carrying it onto an aircraft, would be a willful violation of the regulations. .

I trust this satisfies your inquiry. Please contact us if we can be of further assistance.

Sincerely,



Edward T. Mazzullo
Director
Office of Hazardous Materials Standards



Not to get to far in the weeds on this and confuse the issue, one might argue that if it was a BP substitute and is a flammable solid, then it could be legal to do this since the substitute would not be considered an explosives like black powder. BP can only be reclassified as a flammable solid under certain conditions, air transportation is not one of them.

Original poster: let me play with this a little and see if I can get anything out of PHMSA for you. Perhaps I can get a quick email answer for you. If you want, my personal email is afleener@yahoo.com.

If you are wanting to go to AK and hunt with a ML, there is a USDOT Special Permit that I have gotten that allows me to fly with BP and percussion caps in a bush plane. Bush planes are a commercial aircraft as well. If anyone wants more info on that send me an email.


Fleener



 
Britsmoothy 
70 Cal.
Posts: 4563
07-22-18 03:21 PM - Post#1694492    

    In response to fleener

  • fleener Said:
I can not speak to Greenland's regulations, only to the USA.

You can fly with ammunition for personal use. 49 CFR does allow it, see 49 CFR 175.10 - Exceptions for passengers, crewmembers, and air operators.

The airlines will have additional restrictions that they can and most do place on the traveler.

You can not fly with just plain powder, it is restricted. If you were flying with a ML and you purposely loaded ammunition with powder to circumvent the regulations for transporting loose powder and it was discovered it would be most likely an issue for you to deal with.

I know people do this and they think it is a good "work around", but it is not legal in the USA.

The below interp is from the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration (PHMSA), United States Department of Transportation. PHMSA writes the HM regs for all modes of transportation in the USA and is also responsible for issuing clarifications or interpretations for the HM transportation laws in the USA.

Here is the link to the interp and the original letter requesting the interp.

https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/sites/phmsa.dot.gov/files/legacy/i...

October 15, 2001


Mr. Larry J. Talley Reference No. 01-0216
2499 Countrywood Parkway
Cordova, TN 38018

Dear Mr. Talley:

This responds to your letter dated August 7, 2001, regarding the transportation of black powder under the U.S. Hazardous Materials Regulations (HMR; 49 CFR Parts 171-180) and the International Civil Aviation Organization's Technical Instructions for the Safe Transport of Dangerous Goods by Air (ICAO Technical Instructions). Specifically, you ask if there are any exceptions that would allow for the domestic or international transportation of black powder by aircraft.

The answer is no. The air transportation of black powder is forbidden both domestically under the HMR and internationally under the ICAO Technical Instructions. Putting the black powder into either a shotgun case or brass rifle case, as you describe in your letter, and carrying it onto an aircraft, would be a willful violation of the regulations. .

I trust this satisfies your inquiry. Please contact us if we can be of further assistance.

Sincerely,



Edward T. Mazzullo
Director
Office of Hazardous Materials Standards



Not to get to far in the weeds on this and confuse the issue, one might argue that if it was a BP substitute and is a flammable solid, then it could be legal to do this since the substitute would not be considered an explosives like black powder. BP can only be reclassified as a flammable solid under certain conditions, air transportation is not one of them.

Original poster: let me play with this a little and see if I can get anything out of PHMSA for you. Perhaps I can get a quick email answer for you. If you want, my personal email is afleener@yahoo.com.

If you are wanting to go to AK and hunt with a ML, there is a USDOT Special Permit that I have gotten that allows me to fly with BP and percussion caps in a bush plane. Bush planes are a commercial aircraft as well. If anyone wants more info on that send me an email.


Fleener




Can one travel by air with black powder ammunition or not?

If so the authorities deem it a safe situation to fly.
What happens to the ammunition after the journey is no longer the jurisdiction of any air line authority.
Circumnavigate as it has been named is a misleading comment.
If loaded ammunition with black powder is deemed safe for transport on an aircraft then it is a viable means.
The opinions in the above communications are opinions.
I have not read that it is a violation to travel with black powder ammunition or did I miss it?
To think that one can be in violation of something because they choose to dismantal some ammunition away from the mode of transport is frankly ludicrous!

B.

 
fleener 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1356
07-22-18 05:00 PM - Post#1694497    

    In response to Britsmoothy

PHMSA wrote: "The answer is no. The air transportation of black powder is forbidden both domestically under the HMR and internationally under the ICAO Technical Instructions. Putting the black powder into either a shotgun case or brass rifle case, as you describe in your letter, and carrying it onto an aircraft, would be a willful violation of the regulations."

I am not sure where the miss understanding is? The interp seems clear.

If you are not, or no longer in commercial transportation, the USDOT no longer has jurisdiction.

Fleener

 
Britsmoothy 
70 Cal.
Posts: 4563
07-23-18 12:00 AM - Post#1694529    

    In response to fleener

And I thought Britain had crazy restrictions!
How many air craft have been lost to carrying black powder?

B.

 
fleener 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1356
07-23-18 06:05 AM - Post#1694533    

    In response to Britsmoothy

Can you fly with black powder in GB? My guess is that you can not as well. GB I assume has adopted the UN HM regulations as a bases for your domestic HM regulations.

Imagine next year when we come to Bisley for the World Long Range matches and if we brought several pounds of powder with us for the match. If you were part of the general, non shooting passengers, would you want to be flying on that aircraft with several pounds of 1.1 explosives in the cargo hold?

Fleener

 
fleener 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1356
07-23-18 05:40 PM - Post#1694613    

    In response to sheephunter

Sheephunter

I sent you an private message.

Fleener

 
sheephunter 
32 Cal.
Posts: 6
07-23-18 06:25 PM - Post#1694618    

    In response to fleener

No problem guys. They'll never catch me because I will not do it. I know it is illegal to fly black powder and pellets 100% guaranteed and that is why I am trying to locate some already on the ground in Greenland and this seems to be worse than finding the needle in the haystack although I have found some, not what I wanted but will do, if in fact it is still in good shape since it has been left in a hunting camp since last March by a hunter that was there (never asked how it got there, don't want to know, don't need to know). But between now and this time next year, I will have found someone shipping a container that will have enough powder in it to last all hunters for a while to come. Anyway, thanks for the import and for the guys wanting guarantees in life... well, I'll be in Greenland.

 
Britsmoothy 
70 Cal.
Posts: 4563
07-23-18 11:40 PM - Post#1694657    

    In response to fleener

  • fleener Said:
Can you fly with black powder in GB? My guess is that you can not as well. GB I assume has adopted the UN HM regulations as a bases for your domestic HM regulations.

Imagine next year when we come to Bisley for the World Long Range matches and if we brought several pounds of powder with us for the match. If you were part of the general, non shooting passengers, would you want to be flying on that aircraft with several pounds of 1.1 explosives in the cargo hold?

Fleener


As far as I am aware there is no restrictions on loaded ammunition other than declaration of its presence.
Maybe things have changed!

B.

 
nhmoose 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2245
nhmoose
08-02-18 09:10 PM - Post#1695895    

    In response to Britsmoothy

Believing an internet forum is not real LEGAL advise IMHO

 
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