Flint type Lock with no Half Cock Poistion?

Have any of you eever seen a Flintlock that did not have a half cock position on the lock? There doesn't seem to be a half cock position on the one I am looking at and am wondering if this is a intended variant or if it is clearly a defect. Thanks

Some early locks had an external "dog" that engaged the cock in lieu of a half cock notch.

some high end english makers used an external sliding saftey bolt rather than a 1/2 cock notch

Some "set triggers" need to be set before you can half cock the lock. I have also seen an early, original flintlock that did not have a half cock. Apparently the idea was you primed when you thought you were going to get a shot, by cocking the piece, priming, and closing the pan. Not super safe..., probably why the "dog" or the half-cock notch was introduced.

LD

1601phill said:

some high end english makers used an external sliding saftey bolt rather than a 1/2 cock notch

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I have seen this on a few English sporting guns also.
The locks that I observed so far were from quality London builders and of middling quality.
This worked very much like our modern guns. Slide the safety off and fire.

Some of the early (pre-1800) English North West guns lacked a half-cock. Purely a cost cutting measure on them, I believe. You'll also find that on African trade locks, too----the 'Lazarino' lock springs to mind.

Rod

Some guns in the 19th and 20th century south dont have a half cock either.

Dean2 said:

Have any of you eever seen a Flintlock that did not have a half cock position on the lock? There doesn't seem to be a half cock position on the one I am looking at and am wondering if this is a intended variant or if it is clearly a defect. Thanks

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What are you looking at?
Can you describe and/or post pics?
To answer, yes. I have a friend who is new to the ml game. But he is an amatuer machinist who recently built a lock for himself. So far it does not have a half-cock. He plans to refine the lock and include a half cock and fly.

All the english locks that I have worked on that had a sliding safety also had a half cock notch and the sliding safety engaged on the half cock position, never on the full cock position.
This includes Manton, Durs Egg, Mortimer, and Wogdon.

That is the way most were Jerry. The ones I am speaking about above had no half cock at all and were earlier than the guys you mention.
The sliding safety guns I have here are 1745-1770ish and they slide in the half cock like you are talking about.

The little lock I have on my pistol does not have a half cock.

Rod L said:

Some of the early (pre-1800) English North West guns lacked a half-cock. Purely a cost cutting measure on them, I believe. You'll also find that on African trade locks, too----the 'Lazarino' lock springs to mind.

Rod

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Cost cutting, maybe. I think it flattened out the learning curve for a primative culture to learn to cock and shoot 'em. The "safety" was a horrible heavy trigger pull. The ones I've seen w/out a half cock were also unbridled inside and that is surely to cut costs.

lucky said:

The little lock I have on my pistol does not have a half cock.

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What is that?

WOW--OK, that's different! Maybe pics of the whole pistol are in order?

Matt--you're probably right. No frills to save a penny or two, and easier for the customer to understand. The heavy triggerpull was also one of the reasons for the big triggerbow, as well---room for the two fingers it took to pull the trigger.

Rod

When the lock is off the rifle does it have a half cock?

I never work on anything cheap or inexpensive so I probably wouldn't come in contact with anything like that.

That pistol is the modern custom that looks like a .45 Auto with a flintlock lock installed facing aft.

It hardly fits the time period of the Muzzleloading Forum so I would rather not see the full view of it here.

Getting back to flintlocks without a half cock I am sure there have been such locks made in the past but by not having a half cock notch they fail to incorporate one of the big advantages that the French Flintlock had over the earlier locks.

The Snaphance and English Dog Lock version of it did not normally use the tumbler as an item that could have a half cock notch in it but even these usually had some sort of method of setting the cock at half cock.

Two other members mentioned this so I will add it to my post.

Has the lock been removed and examined to see if there is a half cock notch cut into the tumbler?

Is the gun using a double set, single lever style of set trigger?

It is quite possible that the lock does have a half cock notch but the double set, single lever will not allow it to work because the trigger has not been set before cocking the gun.

You got all the numbers in the right order :thumbsup: Perfect.
Wulf

That is a good question. Having never owned one it never occurred to me to take the lock off and look. I purchased the gun and have to go back to pick it up so I will take a closer look when I get it home. I will also check to see if it has a set trigger feature. Not having had a flintlock it never occurred to me that the trigger would need to be set to engage the half cock.

Thank you all for the great info. Very informative. I will post pictures if it turns out not to have a half cock notch. The gun is a modern replica of a Kentucky half stock rifle. It is beautifully built, great wood to metal fit and premium parts. It is a left handed gun built by a now deceased builder who is locally renowned for the work he did building Flintlocks. It was one of his personal guns and his favourite small caliber rifle, which he used often. I doubt it is missing the half cock as a cost saving measure like some of the early guns so my bet is the trigger is of the set variety and will check that out closely. Thanks again. Really appreciate all the help.

Dean2 said:

That is a good question. Having never owned one it never occurred to me to take the lock off and look. I purchased the gun and have to go back to pick it up so I will take a closer look when I get it home. I will also check to see if it has a set trigger feature. Not having had a flintlock it never occurred to me that the trigger would need to be set to engage the half cock.

Thank you all for the great info. Very informative. I will post pictures if it turns out not to have a half cock notch. The gun is a modern replica of a Kentucky half stock rifle. It is beautifully built, great wood to metal fit and premium parts. It is a left handed gun built by a now deceased builder who is locally renowned for the work he did building Flintlocks. It was one of his personal guns and his favourite small caliber rifle, which he used often. I doubt it is missing the half cock as a cost saving measure like some of the early guns so my bet is the trigger is of the set variety and will check that out closely. Thanks again. Really appreciate all the help.

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Firearms that require the triggers to be set before the lock can be cocked are dangerous.
Quality guns do not require this.

Dan