Why so few high end "percs"?

[shortbow]

Hey Gents and Ladies, back many years ago when I got into this game, most of the guns I had, saw or heard about were percussion rifles with an emphasis on the RMFT.

I live out West, so that explains things to some extent, but nonetheless, I'm sure we've all noticed that over the last number of years the emphasis seems to have turned to 18th century flintlocks. This seems especially true of all the beautiful high end customs one sees on this and other sites, not to mention mags like MUZZLELOADER.

How come there are so relatively few nice custom percussion guns, either later longrifles or half-stocks? And when 'zactlty did this start?

I know a lot of the flint guys say you haven't really gotten into the ML game until you're running a nice custom flinter, but I personally don't agree. My custom Hawken is as nice a gun as any of their high style flinters, imho anyway.

I like flint locks, no doubt, but as my thing is the RMFT I don't feel unduly shortchanged carrying a percussion gun. I certainly admire the golden age Kentuckies and all their kin, but I just plain love my hand-built plains rifle.

So, again, how come there are seemingly so few custom percussion guns being built and used? Will the pendulum swing back one day?

 

[scott taylor]

I have my share of flinters and they were not cheap by my standards and they have their place, almost a form of art. But like you maybe I am more interested in RMFT times but personally I have degraded into a Texican.
I have a fullstock percussion Hawken on the way, maybe another month. .54, barrel tapers from 1" at the breech to 7/8" at the muzzle. Case hardened furniture, brown barrel, aqua fortis and whatever he usues finished maple stock.
Goggle WB Selb.
I think the shift to the flintlock interest might be more of an internet thing since there are more people back east and they are maybe more interested in their history than western folks history. Thats my theory, but I have been wrong before.

Scott

 

[paulvallandigham]

Remember that the RMFT began after the Lewis and Clark Expedition made its way home, leaving a man or two( John Coulter) back in the mountains to explore and trap. That is 1805.

Percussion guns show up rather late in that period, in the mid-1830s, through the 1840s, when the 49ers were traveling across the mountains to reach the Gold Fields in California. A lot of the RMFT adventures and exploration, as well as the market for beaver pelts were ending by the time you see Percussion guns appear in abundance. These guns started the great Buffalo killing, that provided the East with Buffalo hides, which then were shipped to Europe. After the Civil War, cartridge guns quickly took over the Buffalo hunting chores, while railroads, as well as a few remaining wagon trains continued to take immigrants West. The Transcontinental RR opened up in 1869, 4 years after the end of the Civil War. It wasn't until the 1880s that we saw the massive destruction of the buffalo herds, probably due more from diseases carried to these herds by eastern cattle that broke loose during storms crossing the plains, rather than from the work of the hide hunters. The railroads were hundreds of miles apart- too far apart for hide hunters to cover those distances in wagons, efficiently, so that they could sell their hides and return with fresh supplies of powder, caps, an bullets to continue the killing.

A horse drawn wagon, filled with buffalo hides might make 10-15 miles a day on reasonably flat ground. Much less going over hills. Do the math to figure out how many days it would take to cover 300 miles or more going to and from the herds. Tough way to make a fortune, NO?

From pictures and stories, we have the impression that all the buffalo were shot by Easterners off of trains covering the prairie, and that tens of thousands of buffalo were killed and left to rot along the right-of-ways. While it may have happened occasionally, it generally was not the case that these herds just stood along the tracks waiting to be shot. :hmm:

 

[roundball]

My thinking is that if there is an attraction to get into the traditional scene, the Flintlock era was a huge block of time spanning many historical milestones compared to the relative short, brief caplock period, and captures the interest of more people...hence a larger market for Flintlocks than caplocks.

For our country, the early American Traditional Muzzleloading era contained most of the initial settler activity, the F&I war, the Revolutionary War, etc...and in that context the caplock and Civil War period are kind of modern compared to the Flintlock era when looked at on a large historic scale...at least that's how I think about your question

 

[paulvallandigham]

There were engraved and inlayed percussion guns, don't get me wrong. But, you see them in surviving shotguns, and in guns made in Europe more than here in the USA. The vast market for the new Percussion action was by people involved in Western Expansion, and they were putting their money into that effort- not into golden age guns. The few Golden age percussion guns were built mainly in the East, for wealthy customers for whom hunting and shooting was becoming more like the tradition of hunting( as a sport of the rich) in England, and Western Europe, and not a matter of subsistence.

The beginning of the Industrial Age also competed for the gun business, with factories being able to meet high demands for inexpensive,"no-frills" firearms by immigrants. You still see engravers and inlayers working for Colt, and Remington, and a few smaller gun companies that have not survived, but they worked on "presentation guns" that the companies tended to "Give" to influential politicians, heads of governments, and military officers to attempt to secure government contracts. Even the Hawken Shop built a few "fancy " guns in that later period, but they were the exception, not the norm.

 

[aeatwood]

I'm having a late English Sporter half-stock made by Steve Zihn. I'm torn between just building a great clean hunting rifle, and throwing him a wad of cash and saying "Go nuts".

 

[troutabout]

In the near future I will be ordering a smooth bore 28 gauge kit gun in the Carolina or simple barn gun trim. As much as I'd like to try flint I can't see the practicality over percussion. I've shot with friends that were shooting flinters and there's just too many dry clicks to my way of thinking. If I get one chance at shot on turkey or quail or heaven forbid deer - I don't want to travel miles and prep hours, walk miles to hear "click !" And all the fancy brass and scrambled egg design can't make it shoot straighter.

 

[Black Hand]

On the rare occasions that my flinters don't fire, I've done something wrong (same as with a percussion gun). Never had them fail shooting at a deer.

A MAJOR thing to consider with flinters is the quality. Cheap locks are a pain, leading to many mis-fires (or no-fires), while a quality lock will function (and fire) flawlessly (see caveat above).....

 

[crockett]

I think what happened was that during the actual time the percussion was superior to the flint so percussion locks were used. Then muzzle loading died out EXCEPT for the Smokey Mountain areas where muzzle loaders never really died out but the predominant guns were long rifles with percussion locks- "hog" rifles if you will. In the 1930's some interest got going and since percussion locks were what remained and generally easier for the beginner to use- those were what got used. Then the replicas started to be made- say 1954 -Dixie Gun Works. These were long rifles but the stocks were expensive so there were some short barrel, half stocks made and somebody thought they looked like a Hawken and over night everyone got interested in the Hawken period, but these rifles were poor examples of a true Hawken and the Flints were works of art so those really interested got into the flintlocks.
All this is well and good but I also think the percussion is sort of snubbed and that's too bad since it is a fine lock. In addition to the Hawken there are some other plains rifles that are very nice and in the east there was a long rifle in heavy caliber (50-54) with percussion locks and a half stock- the eastern "Bear" gun, if you want to call it that, and some of these late date muzzle loaders are extremely nice even if they didn't have any particular historical significance. In any event, I too would welcome more interest in some of the other types of percussion lock firearms that seldom get much attention.

 

[roundball]

I don't want to travel miles and prep hours, walk miles to hear "click !"

I am NOT being snooty when I say this...but I will say without question that when you apply yourself and ensure the few little things are done properly for 100% reliability on a Flintlock, you'll never hear that click you referenced.

I've hunted exclusively with Flintlocks for the past 12 years, 6 deer tags a year, turkey, squirrels, crows, etc...I have never...repeat never...had a failure on game...including 3 deer now taken in light/moderate rain.
Conversely, the only failure to fire I've ever had was with a caplock back in the early 90s, missing a nice 6 pointer on a clear bright November day.

There are a lot of reasons why different folks choose caplocks or Flintlocks and I salute your interest in caplocks...I just don't want you to make that decision thinking there's some inherent reason that causes Flintlocks to fail without warning because that's absolutely not the case.
It is always the shooter's responsibility to ensure all elements are ready for ignition to be as close to instantaneous as possible every time...

Whichever you decide, enjoy
:thumbsup:

 

[Rifleman1776]

A look back at the modern history of ml use will show trends, some overlapping.
Here in the Ozark region the percussion muzzle loading rifle was often still used as the family hunting and protection gun. They were left overs from grand and great-grandad and were used because the families could not afford anything else.
Then Red Farris and others in the 1930s started the NMLRA and originals of many kinds came out of the closets and were used. Somewhere along that timeline the mountain man craze kicked in and if you didn't shoot a Hawken you just were not 'in'.
Then we started seeing craftsmen making replicas and all kinds of styles came to be seen at rendezvous and on the target ranges.
I'm not sure when it started but the current interest in trade guns began to take over the Hawken obsession.
As I see it, right now we have many ml shooters whose interests span all eras and many styles. That is good, it is what the NMLRA is (was?) all about.
You will see many fine "high end" percs at these events. The flint rifles have a strong following also but it would be hard to quantify how many of what is in use out there. And that is good.

 

[hanshi]

From what I understand by the time the percussion cap became common, the day of the longrifle was essentially over. No doubt there were longrifles built as percussion from scratch, but I'd be willing to bet they were mostly conversions. the percussion era didn't last all that long nor did the fur trade.

The longrifle was well entrenched and there was only so much room for Mountain Men. I have no way of knowing but suspect that old longrifles and military guns from TWBTS made up the majority of weapons carried by settlers exclusive of RMFT.

 

[Zonie]

I enjoy both Percussion and Flintlock rifles and I have built both.

Melchoir Fordney, among others were building fancy carved Lancaster longrifles well into the 1800's. He died in 1843 but was still building when he passed. (His neighbor killed him with an axe when he tried to stop the man from beating his horse.
The neighbor pleaded insanity but the town hung him anyway.)

While I'm no Fordney, I did build a nice Percussion in his style:

The builders in Bedford were also making fancy Percussion long rifles well into the 1850's.
This is my version of one of them patterned after photos in one of my books

This Franklin County Percussion was also based on photos of an original Percussion (not a conversion).

I guess what I'm saying is that there are some fairly nice Percussions out there is that is what a person wants.

 

[zodd]

they are beautiful Zonie

 

[Robert Egler]

Go with what you're comfortable with. It wouldn't be an enjoyable hunt if the whole time you're thinking "Is this thing gonna fire when I pull the trigger?"

On the other hand, I can say that I've hunted a lot (mostly but not exclusively) with a flintlock for years, and I've only ever had one flash in the pan shooting at game. Percentage-wise probably about the same percentage as when I hunted with .22s mostly and on the very rare occasion had a round that didn't fire.

 

[gordy]

I would have to agree with most reasons given here. Most all the ideas certainly have merit. The one item not mentioned is that as a profit making venture , the manufacture of replcas was one item that helped to increase many more folks into shooting BP. It was , and still is cheaper to build an (cheap) inexpensive lock that functioned fairly well without tinkering and tuning then a cheap flintlock that has to be mounted and tuned by hand even on production guns Most people could mangage to get a cap stuck on a nipple and the gun usually would fire. The Flintlock was/is a different breed and takes a little more knowledge , time and care to keep working at its best. Many of the flint shooters on this board cut their teeth on caplocks and then graduated to flint. I have nothing against caplocks , but as was stated by Roundball and others , they can be made to fire on a reliable a basis as a caplock.
:thumbsup: :hatsoff:

 

[wattlebuster]

I have built both an enjoy shooting both. I will admit that I like shooting my flintlock more. In good weather I hunt with my rocklocks an in bad I hunt with my percussion. It cost me about the same money to build both. The only differance being the locks.

 

[hoochiepapa]

Nice rifles, all. IMHO, the reason there aren't fancy perc's, is the Thompson Center came out with their rifles in perc, and there was no reason to make flint, it had a bad reputation from some of the loonies that aired their frustrations out on tv. I, myself, saw a program not too long ago on military rifles, and the guy was shooting one in flint, and there was the clack!, boom! you so often hear about. So many guns came out from different makers in perc., and they all tried to make them look like Hawkens, and the flint got left by the wayside except for folks like you here on this forum.
I gotta admit, both my builds are percussion, (for the moment) because of the bad press flint got, and I knew no better. But I do now. I just got my replacement locks, both Deluxe Siler's, and I can't wait to shoot them.

 

[Snakebite]

I thought all the "fancy" percussion rifles were converted from flintlocks. :wink:

 

[Cascade Pete]

Even Tough the Flintlocks were around longer, The Percussion Era was monumental in its short historic time frame. We Look at the 1840's-1870's and the events that transpired during these decades. Hawkens,J. Henry's, Dickerts, are as Historicly signigicant as the 300 years of Flint rifles before them. They are just overlooked. I for one prefer Flint Guns, but like the weather proof feature of the Percussion. Esp since I live in a very wet area.
With that said, Flint was more available in more places in the US than percussion caps. Maybe that reason alone accounts for Flintlocks lasting longer into the percussion era....Just My .02...
I for one would like to see more high end percussion rifles...