Why are some locks better than others ?

[dan d]

I'm just curious as I am thinking of putting a L&R lock in my traditions deer hunter. I am converting this gun to flintlock & for about $50 more I can get a L&R lock that is made to replace the traditions lock.

I'm pretty mechanical, I understand metals as I work in a machine shop & I know the difference between good tool steel like 8620 & 52100 verses crushed beer can stuff made in China.

Is it the steel used ? Is it the machine quality (things like burrs & uneven surfaces, things not true & square to each other) or all of the above ?

If it's just quality of the machining I would find it relaxing to debur & smooth things up, I could take a mic & an indicator on a surface plate & probably true it up better than the L&R replacement as it is only $150 & in today's world I don't know how far $150 goes to a good quality machined part here in the U.S. We also do heat treat & cryogenics that might help out a cheap traditions lock.

Or would that be putting perfume on a pig ? Then again after I typed that I can see me getting told that a L&R lock on a traditions is putting perfume on a pig :hmm: I like the short gun that the traditions is, I have been following the post on a long gun verses a short gun & I'm a short gun guy all the way as the big bucks live in the knurly nasty thick stuff & I don't want to be toting a long gun thru that. But to each their own, back to what makes a good lock good ?

How does a good lock produce better spark ? Is it just the materials / treatments of the frizzen or what ?

Thanks in advance for the education !
Dan

 

[Heelerau]

Dan,
just for starters, I am no expert, and have only used flintlocks for the last few years, grew up only using cap locks!!
Lock geometry, is very important, where the flint strikes the frizzen, hardness of same, the main spring and frizzen springs must complement each other tension wise. No oil or fouling on frizzen face, edge of flint. Flint quality, fit to cock, and sharpness are important. There is some good stuff on tube about flintlocks.

Cheers

Gordon

 

[Coot]

There are four components to a good lock (or pretty much any mechanical device):

1) good design - the size and spacing of parts, the shape of springs & cock, the orientation of parts & how they work with each other - sometimes called lock geometry. The distance from cock to steel, the angle & point of flint strike, etc. Just as with an aircraft wing a "minor" change in shape, size or angle can have a significant effect on performance

2) good materials - materials well suited to the intended use and of proper strength & hardness.

3) good manufacture - parts well cast & well machined, burrs removed, squarely drilled & tapped, smooth surfaces & close tolerances.

4) tuning - polishing & honing moving parts & balancing springs, reducing internal friction.

Each category can be expanded but I think that you can get the idea - a bad design will be an inferior lock with the best of materials & manufacture, a good design will not be very good if poorly built. Some inferior locks have been made by people looking at a picture of a flintlock but the best locks are made/designed by people with a very thorough understanding of exactly how the locks work and exactly how they accomplish what they are supposed to do.

 

[rich pierce]

Excellent summary. Quality varies between makers and even a single maker's locks vary quite a bit. This is because the parts are cast to final dimension. Any small change in their placement then affects performance. On better originals, the final shaping of parts was likely completed AFTER they were located onnthe lock. For example a sear nose would be forged and filed a little long then once installed would be fitted to the tumbler notches. The tumbler forging and the bridle would also be finally mated so the tumbler stopped against the bridle when the cock was at rest. With precast parts this is not done and small variations can multiply and yield poorer performance.

 

[hanshi]

I can add little to what has already been posted concerning the building and operation of a good flint lock. As a general statement any lock built in America stands a very good chance of being a serviceable to excellent lock. Some have their favorite brands and even an excellent lock builder can occasionally turn out a lemon. Service after market is almost always good.

Putting a decent lock on a Traditions, IMHO, is not putting perfume on a pig. Traditions rifles are not "fine" guns but are good, serviceable rifles that are well made and accurate. I own two of them. If you like the gun, put the L&R on it and you'll have a pretty nice rifle. Understand most locks, no matter who makes them often can use a bit of polishing/tuning. I own locks by several different makers and all work splendidly.

 

[mooman76]

Better metals used and more time used to put them together with proper fit and finish.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Good responses but Rich's was probably the best. He summarized in a few words. The answer is long and complex. A flint lock is not a simple item, it is beautifully complex. Good ones are the result of years, and years of trial and learning.
A modern made, like L&R, lock will improve your rifle and your enjoyment using it. BTW, I have two L&R locks and think they are great.

 

[courdebois]

Quality of most made in america locks won,t be the issue, will it fit, track, in their book has full sized pictures of locks,why is that important, from personal experience, i replaced the lock on a 54 lyman,the pan did not line up correctly with the touchole, sparked great an did fire,but did not look rite, after grinding out the pan in the direction of said touchole and making a new liner with a offset hole drilled in, it looks an shoots great an i now have the latest track book for measurements

 

[Billnpatti]

A lock is like most anything else in that the difference between a good one and a crappy one is material and workmanship. If either, or both, is no good, then the whole thing is no good. As you know, working with inferior materials and trying to make a quality item is like trying to polish the proverbial turd. In the same way, if you have the best material in the world and you hand it to an unqualified craftsman, you will again end up with the turd. The parts may not be finished properly, the geometery of the lock may be off just a few thousandths and it will not work right, etc. A good lock like an L&R is quality craftsmanship applied to quality materials and the result is a quality lock.

 

[MSW]

my two cents worth:

I like Coot's answer. as a practical matter, you may want to consider taking the burrs and so forth off of the lock you have ... smooth the mating surfaces, and see if that improves performance to your satisfaction - you get to tinker with your gun, and you may be pleasantly surprised with the final result. if, on the other hand, it doesn't really make things all that much better, the L&R would be money well spent.

just one guy's opinion ... free and well worth the price!

make good smoke!

 

[dan d]

Thanks for the education guys !

 

[Rokon]

If you do spring for a new custom flint lock, be sure to check the alignment of the cock to the frizzen. It should be squared up. For some reason, I have come across two locks from the top makers in which the cock was "cocked" and not aligned with the frizzen.

 

[petew]

I wonder myself quite often when I read similar threads. Often the answers are confusing. We read about how the custom lock is so superior to factory locks because of the precision that goes into it, and the care it receives during assembly, thousandth's of an inch tolerences etc, and then we are told these fine meticulous precise locks need to be Tuned, and polished to remove burs etc. HMMMMM??
Well my TC lock seems to work just fine as it came from the factory, as well my Lyman/Investarm is very reliable after a soft frizzen was replaced
and my L&R's seem to be just as reliable after I had to remove some rough burrs on the sear and Tumbler.
My limited experience tells me that the frizzen hardness and flint location and quality are most likely to cause no sparks or good sparks.
From all the reading on flint threads it seems that custom locks are realy not much diferent than factory locks as far as the quality of workmanship , if we need to take them apart and grind and polish the internals. Are the customs better because we paid more? and they are supposed to make things better?

 

[jdkerstetter]

Are the customs better because we paid more? and they are supposed to make things better?

All depends on what locks you are calling "custom".

Have you priced a Pedersoli lock new? The one for the Blue Ridge is considerably more than the $150 or so for an American made lock from the big three lock manufactures.

I don't know what Lyman or Traditions get for theirs but I would suspect the same.

The main draw for me to the products turned out by American lock makers is they look more correct. You can't put a Traditions or Lyman lock on a Pennsylvania long rifle and have it look right.

I don't know what guys expect to get for under $150 in a lock, but I'd expect to do a little work....$150 is pretty cheap for what you are getting these days....especially in the locks you get from Chambers, which seldom need any work on their mechanisms to function fine, and if they do just return it to them and they will make it right.

Before anyone can have a discussion on custom locks first the "custom" has to be defined.

The big three American lock makers, Chambers, L&R and Davis don't claim to be "custom" locks. In fact Davis specifically claims to be "semi-custom" on their site. All are American made production locks. Just because they don't come on a factory gun doesn't mean they are "custom".

If you want a custom lock, tuned and ready, with no work needed, hardened and with no burs or parting lines to be removed, I can suggest some guys that will deliver them to you. You will, however, pay considerably more than $150...but you won't have to fuss with 'em.

Just like custom car parts or anything else, some of them are well worth the asking price and some of them value their time a lot higher than others. And just like custom cars, these truely "custom" lock builders will charge you twice to ten times what the big 3 are asking.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Baxter]

Interesting string. I have no personal experience with lock "service" thus far but I have vicarious experience in a comment made to me that a certain builder of locks was "cantankerous" when a lock was returned to him for repair. "Service", just polite service is nice.

 

[Rifleman1776]

and then we are told these fine meticulous precise locks need to be Tuned, and polished to remove burs etc. HMMMMM??

Sadly, that is simply an indication of the times. Ferinstance... you can spend $1,000.00 on a good grade suppository pistol then have to send it to a gunsmith and spend another $500.00 to get it working properly. :shocked2: That is very common and not just with guns. :cursing: It happens in our game. I had a custom ml built that came with a finish much different than I specified and the barrel 5" shorter than I ordered and a hunk of extra metal from machining hindering proper use. Happens.

 

[petew]

Before anyone can have a discussion on custom locks first the "custom" has to be defined. http://lr-rpl.com/index.php?option...id=91:warranty&catid=41:information&Itemid=68

L & R Lock Co., Inc, warrants its custom (not including RPL Line) locks and triggers to be free of defects in material and workmanship for one year after purchase

 

[54mountain]

I just wish L&R made a lefthand RPL flint lock that would fit my GPR. I have 2 L&R locks that I'm very happy with and to me they are way better than the one on my Lyman.

 

[jdkerstetter]

L & R Lock Co., Inc, warrants its custom (not including RPL Line) locks and triggers to be free of defects in material and workmanship for one year after purchase

Well, how about that. Had to really dig through their site to find that one. Guess they've really put themselves out there then.

You'd think that would be something they would disclose on their main pages. They have a pretty high opion of their locks then. Good for them.

Funny they don't consider their RPL locks custom, being that they're meant to replace locks on factory guns, they truely meet the deffinition. Enjoy, J.D.

 

[hanshi]

I can't swear this is true because it's only a guess; but like many in the ML world I think they would likely work with a customer even outside the warranty period and with their rpl locks as well. It's only good business sense to do this.