Wheellock sear repair ...

[Rudyard]

I just found this web site for wheellock kits.

http://www.therifleshoppe.com/catalog_pages/wheellocks/wheellocks.htm
Apologies if this is a repeat. I'm new here.

Welcome Jim we where all new here once youve made good start .
Regards Rudyard

 

[EBrown]

I made the pistol. I don’t know who made the lock though.

The lock is a mendini lock made in Spain. I believe they are the best of the commercial locks that were made available but are no longer produced. The dog (cock) is not really correct but usually they work ok

 

[TobJohn]

While TRS’s other kits are supposed to be decent (mine was), I’ve heard their wheel lock kits are unusable. Its a bummer there isn’t really an option available for wheel locks.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

While TRS’s other kits are supposed to be decent (mine was), I’ve heard their wheel lock kits are unusable. Its a bummer there isn’t really an option available for wheel locks.

Well, let’s just say that custom makers/blacksmiths of the experience of someone like Brian Anderson found ~half the parts unusable, to the point where it was faster - and made a better part - for him to forge or fabricate his own, especially the large ‘V’ spring, which is the heart of a wheellock (IMHO).

Their kits, however, cannot be confused with lock kits like Jim Chambers puts out. The TRS kits are rough! You not only need to have metal skills and know how to assemble one, but must know the intent and geometry of the related parts, as a kit like a ‘plastic glue-together model’ they sure aren’t.

But with that said, we (the MZL community) indeed owe a great deal of thanks and appreciation to Jesse M., and for his vision @ TRS, for bringing antique parts to market. Yes, sometimes it can take years to get the parts, but they are cast in small quantities (in Peru no less) so they naturally have to wait for enough parts to be ordered to make it worthwhile for the casting to commence. Still, without TRS, these parts would be surely ‘unobtainium’!

FWIW, 2 friends just bought 2 Baker rifle kits (building them together) and they were/are VERY impressed with the stocks and lock kits.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Repair Update:

A new sear has been fabricated installed and it works! It traps the ball so it cannot fall out of the lockplate in the uncocked position and it allows the wheel to go to full cock, holds it reliably, and then it releases perfectly.

Alas, the ‘V’ main spring in this Schroeter kit (… cannot confirm it to be an original) is very weak and doesn’t provide that much power. In the 1st picture of the spring shown, there’s no tension to the stirrup, where there should be at least 1/4” of pre-load tension to even hang the stirrup onto the spring.

Next up, fabricate cams to properly open the pan cover.

 

[TobJohn]

Repair Update:

A new sear has been fabricated installed and it works! It traps the ball so it cannot fall out of the lockplate in the uncocked position and it allows the wheel to go to full cock, holds it reliably, and then it releases perfectly.

Alas, the ‘V’ main spring in this Schroeter kit (… cannot confirm it to be an original) is very weak and doesn’t provide that much power. In the 1st picture of the spring shown, there’s no tension to the stirrup, where there should be at least 1/4” of pre-load tension to even hang the stirrup onto the spring.

Next up, fabricate cams to properly open the pan cover.

View attachment 185612

View attachment 185613

View attachment 185614

The main v spring for a wheellock has to be very powerful to work, right? I saw a video mention that the Black powder fowling of the wheel (slowing it down) is one reason why wheellocks can have a reputation for unreliability.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

The main v spring for a wheellock has to be very powerful to work, right? I saw a video mention that the Black powder fowling of the wheel (slowing it down) is one reason why wheellocks can have a reputation for unreliability.

Yes, plus it also has to push the pan cover out from under the tension of the dog holding the pyrite, that sits on the cover prior to firing.

There is a cam on the tumbler (axle) that pushes the pan cover lever. So that, plus rotational power … never mind any built-up fouling ... can impede operation.

For extended range sessions, I find a non-period correct blast of carb cleaner behind the wheel works wonders! But I also diamond hone all bearing/working surfaces so fouling is less likely to build up and adhere.

On my BA wheelie, I did get 28-shots off without touching the wheel, but I do clean the pyrite religiuosly. As being softer than flint, fouling really gunks it up. I find a brass hobby/gun cleaning brush to work wonders!

 

[TobJohn]

Yes, plus it also has to push the pan cover out from under the tension of the dog holding the pyrite, that sits on the cover prior to firing.

There is a cam on the tumbler (axle) that pushes the pan cover lever. So that, plus rotational power … never mind any built-up fouling ... can impede operation.

For extended range sessions, I find a non-period correct blast of carb cleaner behind the wheel works wonders! But I also diamond hone all bearing/working surfaces so fouling is less likely to build up and adhere.

On my BA wheelie, I did get 28-shots off without touching the wheel, but I do clean the pyrite religiuosly. As being softer than flint, fouling really gunks it up. I find a brass hobby/gun cleaning brush to work wonders!

Where do you get pyrite for it? Does flint not work?

The fit for the wheel to the pan has to be perfect, so that no powder can fall through, right? Do you you know how that was done pre milling machine? I saw someone mention using the wheel to grind its own slot in the pan, but I do not know enough about metal working to confirm that.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Flint is TOO hard and cannot be used in a wheelock. Pyrite is softer, some pieces I have (I call them ‘crumblies’) look like gold sand glued together.

I too bet the wheels were ground between 2 flat stones, akin to using a sharpening stone to sharpen a knife.

I prime closest to the touchhole and try to avoid getting any powder near or behind the wheel.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Pan cover works! I came up with a method to add a ‘cam’ feature (recall the Schroeter design was erroneously machined with the cam 180-degrees off, to the wrong side of the tumbler), that successfully pushes the pan cover open, by drilling a 1/32” hole into the tumbler hub, then soldering in a nail leaving it ~3/32” high, and then filing a bevel/ramp on the pin.

I added a new ‘cocked’ hole for the wheel and now get full 1/2-turn rotation, under tension and 1/4”+ of preload applied to the spring.

Unfortunately, it doesn’t spark reliably with pyrite or ferro-rod …

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Here’s the sear in action … you can audibly here it ‘click’ when the ball bearing drops into the dimple on the wheel, that traps it.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Flint,
As you know, target wheellocks as well as hunting guns often had wing nuts or thumb screws to remove the lock in the field. Dipped in water and dried off, they were ready for use again.
This to remove caked fouling.

I wrote this yesterday and forgot to post it!
Good you are getting it all sorted!
I have had a wheellock on my mind a good while, that does not require a chain.
Yours proves it is possible.
Is your mainspring the problem do you think, or the pyrites.
I wonder if contacting Bolek would help source some good pyrites?

 

[TobJohn]

Speaking of unusual wheellock mechanisms, the da vinci drawing that is sometimes claimed as the invention of the wheellock uses a coil spring (it does have the bike style chain though). Are there actually any wheellocks that use a coil spring? I’m a newbie to this, but I haven’t found any.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

I once heard that the late Leonard Day was fooling around by modifying the Indian-made wheel locks to be powered by coil springs, but the results were not too successful.

As sold, the Indian lock assemblies were sold on pistols and he was trying to get them to fit some of his muskets/rifles.

It’s an interesting thought, but usually coil springs, when you think of like a clock, give low power for a long, long duration whereas a wheellock needs the opposite … it needs to provide an instant burst with high torque.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Is your mainspring the problem do you think, or the pyrites.

I have very good pyrite, some from Brian Anderson and some I bought myself from eBay, where from one piece I got 28 shots in a row, just by cleaning it.

For the Schroeter W-L kit, I think it was a valiant attempt at providing a functional wheellock kit, but ultimately failed in both design and execution.

Here is just my shortlist so far of the issues, the bad:

-Tumbler/Stirrup: The stirrup is like a flattened ‘C’ or shaped like a slight ‘smile’, that hangs off in an eccentric cam. But even without the spring installed, there is no way one can get more than half a turn of the wheel. If you try to turn or wind it any further the mechanism binds up.

-Main Spring: I have a good 1/4” of preload to the spring before I can get it to hang onto the stirrup, but it still just does not provide enough power to both open the pan cover and spark the lock. The spring is actually well-made, so I can’t fault for spring per se, but rather the design of the tumbler arrangement as above.

I can get the lock assembly to spark reliably if I rest the pyrite directly onto the wheel.

-Pan Cover Cam: The OEM design uses one of the lobes of the eccentric cam to push open the pan cover. But, it is oriented the wrong way, as machined it is 180° off where it should be to properly push open the pan cover. This is been a serious design flaw reported on here as early as 5-years ago.

-Dog Alignment: Everything for the dog is positioned off the lock plate, but the way the part was cast, the result is that the jaws are halfway off the wheel (towards the touchhole). I am going to have to heat it and bend it out or do something, so that the jaws rest/position fully or centered over the wheel.

-Dog Foot: For effective wheellock operation, it is imperative that the largest force of the dog spring is right when the dog rests on the pan cover, so when the pan cover moves, it drops the pyrite down into the wheel with force … to create the spark.

… the good:

-The use of a ball bearing to trap the wheel is pure ingenious! It would likely never wear out. Then I like the two steps on the sear lever, where one is the cocked position (see video in a few posts above) and the other is a winding position that allows the ball to be retracted into the lock plate but not fall out of it.

The sear-to-trigger mechanism really works slick! It’s too bad the rest of the parts aren’t as well thought out and executed.

My ‘hopeful’ solution(s):
I have ordered some spring stock and I will try making stronger main springs.

I was also able to remove the pin that holds the stirrup to the eccentric cam (without damage) and I might try making some ‘bicycle chain’ links so that I can get or easier (less drag) and more winding rotation of the chain around the wheel.

In one of my earlier posts, you can see that once that eccentric cam clocks towards the left and past 12 o’clock or straight up … it begins to lose power from the main spring as the cam then begins to drop.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

It does sound like you will more or less have built a new lock by the time you have all the corrections done Flint!
With a chain, how much more revolution can you attain?
I think 3/4 rev. would be about max wouldn't it?
I have some small chain hanging on a nail in the shop, for if I need it !
I also think that the heavier the mainspring, the more faults you can get away with, LOL!
For me if I was starting from scratch, one similar to the attached photos would likely be easier, as spring can be any length. being not self contained!
See pics...

What is interesting is the vertical sear, rather than horizontal..

 

[Pukka Bundook]

I also found this idea very interesting. The trigger acts as a wedge that draws the sear out of engagement.
It could be very workable on a matchlock.

 

[TobJohn]

View attachment 186233View attachment 186235View attachment 186236View attachment 186237

I also found this idea very interesting. The trigger acts as a wedge that draws the sear out of engagement.
It could be very workable on a matchlock.

Happy New Years everyone!

Do you have a source for these photos or background information for when and where the mechanism is from?

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

HOLY MAIN SPRING!!!

 

[Pukka Bundook]

John,
Obviously some of the pictures overwritten in Bavarian are from Michael, the others I no longer know where I saw them.
Sorry
and Happy New Year!