Using FFFF hunting/shooting

[Dphar]

The different grain sizes in BP F, FF, FFF, FFFF produce increases in burn rate. Being a surface burning propellant and since FF has twice +- the surface area of F for a given charge weight it will burn twice as fast.
However, given BPs limited pressure potential this does not equate into twice the pressure. But it DOES increase pressure.
Years ago a friend was experimenting with the 357 Maximum cartridge case. Without checking I believe that this is very similar to the 35-30 Maynard. He was trying to make it into a BP Schuetzen cartridge. FFF would not produce the required velocity. He tried FFFF and got pressure excusions. VERY flattened primers etc. There were other anomalies as well. It was scary enough that he abandoned the project.
Years ago we pulled the bullet from an original 38 S&W cartridge loaded with BP. It was UMC as I recall. It was loaded with an uncompressed charge, filling about 1/2 the capacity, of what looked very much like FFFF Swiss. This was only perhaps 10-12 grains, I was in someone else's shop and don't recall weighing it. Apparently this was used to get the ballistics to an acceptable level with the cheapest powder charge.

I would never shoot FFFF as the main charge in any rifle load, in percussion revolvers or even as a full case charge in a small 32 or 38 S&W case especially given the "quality" of some old pocket revolvers.
Its not safe IMO.
For that matter shooting FG is cannons larger than about 1-1 1/4" bore is not safe either and could produce excess pressure even with a blank. FG afterall was used in rifle loads down to 32-40 for best accuracy back in the day by target shooters. I think it was used in punt guns (though there were "Ducking" powders made in Englnd) as well. It is not a cannon powder except for small bore types. But I have seen it used in full size cannons to make noise...

Dan

 

[Rat Trapper]

Toby Bridges talks about trying to get a small caliber rifle to shoot well at a low enough vel that it would not destroy the squirrel. In the end he went with 15 grains of 4F and the vel was under 1000 fps and shot very well. I think this was with a 36 caliber rifle. I'd have to pull the book, but I know the charge was 15 grains and my buddy tried it in his 36. Worked there too. Not knowing what the pressures are, I wouldn't use more than that. The point here is unless you have a way to test pressure, don't use more than 15 grains in a 32 o4 36 caliber.

 

[BrownBear]

Toby Bridges talks about trying to get a small caliber rifle to shoot well at a low enough vel that it would not destroy the squirrel. In the end he went with 15 grains of 4F and the vel was under 1000 fps and shot very well. I think this was with a 36 caliber rifle. I'd have to pull the book, but I know the charge was 15 grains and my buddy tried it in his 36. Worked there too. Not knowing what the pressures are, I wouldn't use more than that. The point here is unless you have a way to test pressure, don't use more than 15 grains in a 32 o4 36 caliber.

I suspect Bridges got his chronograph as a prize a Cracker Jack box. :bull:

I can tell you that 15 grains of 3f will break the sound barrier from a 36 caliber, listening to the CRACK and not turning on a chronograph, and you have to get down around 10 grains of 3f to get it to shut up with the cracking.

Never shot 15 grains of 4f from my 36, but I've been with my bud when he does it with his. The ball not only CRACKS, it hits a snowshoe hare hard enough to just about cut it in half.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I got out my old, falling apart, copy of the Lyman 1st edition this a.m. and spent some time with it. Without reading all the many pages of small print discussing powders/loads, etc. I was only able to find charts referencing the use of 4Fg in the pistol section. I will not repeat any of the findings because they vary wildely would cause a whole new eruption here. I will say this, some similar loads, changing only from 4Fg to 3Fg give what seem like opposite results. Some 4Fg loads give higher pressures than the 3Fg. In other cases the reverse is what they report.
I'm not a statistic guy, for the most part. But, there is one statisic I am interested in. I have ten fingers, five on each hand. When I am buried, I want that count to remain the same.
I will not use 4Fg as a main charge and do not reccomend it's use in that manner.

 

[Dennis McAtee]

Just thought I would update you guys. My shop finally got a shipment in. I got lots of 2F and 3F now. Now I get the fun of seeing how each rifle likes what. Not a bad problem to have. :wink:

 

[Dphar]

Toby Bridges talks about trying to get a small caliber rifle to shoot well at a low enough vel that it would not destroy the squirrel. In the end he went with 15 grains of 4F and the vel was under 1000 fps and shot very well. I think this was with a 36 caliber rifle. I'd have to pull the book, but I know the charge was 15 grains and my buddy tried it in his 36. Worked there too. Not knowing what the pressures are, I wouldn't use more than that. The point here is unless you have a way to test pressure, don't use more than 15 grains in a 32 o4 36 caliber.

If the hunter can shoot well enough to hit them in the head light loads would not be needed.
One must always remember that gun writers constantly look for something to write about so they can make a car payment or whatever. So thinking he actually did this to shoot squirrels is probably an error. More than likely it was just fodder for his word processor. Do some shooting, shoot a squirrel, take some pics, write an article, get a check.

I used to use 15 gr of FFF (a 9mm case full anyway) in a 32 to shoot rabbits in our grove when kid. It just poked a hole in them. But I still did head shots. I shot a HV load for squirrels since the range was not always close and shots to 40 yards were doable.
At 1000 fps the trajectory gets too high when shooting at something as small as a squirrel. The rifle needs to shoot very flat to 50 yards.

Dan

 

[Billnpatti]

Heck, Dennis, as long as you live in Indianapolis, you can run over to Deer Creek Products in Waldron, IN or to Friendship and have all granulations and brands available to you. I am not sure what all brands Deer Creek carries but the magazine at NMLRA in Friendship has it all. Before going to Friendship, give them a call to be sure when the magazine is open.

 

[Dphar]

I got out my old, falling apart, copy of the Lyman 1st edition this a.m. and spent some time with it. Without reading all the many pages of small print discussing powders/loads, etc. I was only able to find charts referencing the use of 4Fg in the pistol section. I will not repeat any of the findings because they vary wildely would cause a whole new eruption here. I will say this, some similar loads, changing only from 4Fg to 3Fg give what seem like opposite results. Some 4Fg loads give higher pressures than the 3Fg. In other cases the reverse is what they report.
I'm not a statistic guy, for the most part. But, there is one statisic I am interested in. I have ten fingers, five on each hand. When I am buried, I want that count to remain the same.
I will not use 4Fg as a main charge and do not reccomend it's use in that manner.

When looking at this information one must remember that at the time there was a lot of variation in GOI even from can to can in the same case much less from case to case or lot to lot.
So there will be variations. The C&H powder was even worse. Goex did not get a good handle on this until they moved to Minden, LA.
Powders finer than FFF were apparently used in Perc. revolvers. But we have to remember that the FACTORY ammo was paper or foil cartridges often with bullets with long pointed ogives, this reduced the powder capacity. IIRC the factory load for the 36 Navy was 15-17 grains in the combustible or foil cartridges.
Whether these finer powders were used by people loading from flasks with loose bullets/balls I could not say.


Dan

 

[David W.]

I wouldn't use 4Fg for anything other than the priming pan. :2

 

[George T.]

It seems to me that FFFF would be hard to not over compress in a rifle. In a gun with a paten breech with a chamber very light loads might be risky! One other thing! In my area it is very hard to find 4F as a pound will last a looooong time the sales volume is very low. Of course on line ordering has changed this as well! Geo. T.

 

[nkbj]

Opinion Alert...

The portions of ingredients in black powder are the same no matter the grain size. Make yourself a load that gets the critter in your hands rather than spattered on the bark.

 

[Dphar]

It seems to me that FFFF would be hard to not over compress in a rifle. In a gun with a paten breech with a chamber very light loads might be risky! One other thing! In my area it is very hard to find 4F as a pound will last a looooong time the sales volume is very low. Of course on line ordering has changed this as well! Geo. T.

Its very difficult to press powder significantly by hand. Once dropped through a long tube its pretty well settled and there is not much give.
I used to make "followers" as Sharps called them to seat wads on the powder at a uniform depth when loading PP bullets. Even with a handle on the punch trying to compress drop tubed powder an average of .030-.040" makes for a sore hand and this is almost no compression. I went to a compression die for the loading press.
The RB with its round base can be pushed into the powder somewhat and may give the impression that the powder is being compressed 1/8 or 3/16 but this is unlikely unless the powder does not drop properly due to a less than vertical barrel or some other factor. Even then significant compression? Hard to do.

Compressing a 65-70 grain charge 1/4 to 1/2" in a 40 caliber cartridge case for example, requires a loading press or a arbor press. It also pulverizes a significant amount of powder.
Over 1/2" takes more pressure than I care to apply, probably 4000 psi at the punch face.
1/2" compression in an unsupported 45-70 cartridge case will bulge it significantly so that it is too large to chamber.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

I wouldn't use 4Fg for anything other than the priming pan. :2

I understand this and agree. But as I stated here or elsewhere there were fine grained powders listed as "revolver" back in the percussion era.
However, the normal service charge for a percussion revolver like a Navy was less than 20 gr IIRC maybe 15-17 gr. When used with a bullet in a combustible cartridge this was all that would fit.
So there is some historical backing for using fine powders in these applications or in the small cartridge revolvers.
I do know that in cartridges, even with 30 gr of capacity with a fairly heavy bullet for the caliber (35 in this case) that its possible to get high pressure signs with FFFF. It has been tried in recent times and abandoned by the experimenter, a close friend and very experienced shooter looking to use the modern version of the 35-30 Wesson for 200 yard target work.
My experience with C&B revolvers is that they shoot very well and give good velocity with FFF powder. I don't recall trying FFFF in them but might have back years ago. My idea is that using a full load with FFFF would be excessive gas escape at the nipple rather than actually damaging a good modern revolver. But I see no reason to do this. People who try to hot rod BPCR or MLs generally run into some problem or the other.
I keep thinking of the single shot English Express rifle blown in the breech from using "fine grained foreign powder" in Greeners "The Gun". So main charges should be limited to FFF at the finest and FF or F is better in cartridge rifles. This applies to MLs using elongated projectiles.
That FFFF or something very similar was used back in the day in percussion revovlers or 38 S&W and similar, is not in anyway an endorsement of its use today.

It is also interesting to note that while the Colt Walker was a very powerful handgun (would throw a ball farther than a Mississippi rifle by one period account) about 1/2 or more failed in service bursting or bulging the barrel or cylinder. So when shooting ANY antique firearm or a gun made with an old recut barrel extreme caution is very good advice and fine grained powder is a doubly bad idea.
Dan

 

[Dennis McAtee]

I am thinking of making it to friendship on their next big event. Would love to watch all the goings on.