Using FFFF hunting/shooting

[Dennis McAtee]

At least for the time being I am having trouble locating FF and FFF black powder. I noticed the chart that came with one of my rifles shows a drop of 5 grains in the load from FF to FFF. If I have to use FFFF in the charge can I just drop the charge 5 more grains and shoot with it?

 

[Robert Egler]

Never tried it, but I have always heard that you should never use 4F as a main charge.

 

[skunkskinner]

From what i have read and heard its a bad idea to use 4F in the load. You might be buying a new barrel after you get out of the emergency room.

 

[BrownBear]

Buddy of mine has been doing it in small cals for the last 50+ years, defining "small" as 40 and under. He's conservative and doesn't push the idea on anyone else, but sezz his father always did it too, so he has kind of a "background" with it.

Only thing I notice, most of his smaller cals that have been shot for years are real flame throwers. He doesn't hog out the touch hole with iron picks or the like, but all of them are suffering from oversize touch holes these days. Erosion? Could be. You definitely want to watch your footwork when you're shooting around the guy.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Never tried it, but I have always heard that you should never use 4F as a main charge.

Yes, that is one of the sacred shibboleths of ml'ing. Never do it. Like you, I have "heard" it should never be done. And, I don't do it.
But, then, I have never seen actuall tests or evidence it can be dangerous.

 

[ebiggs1]

What is our situation here? Are you trying to ignite a sub in a flintlock. So you are priming with 4F GOEX and using a sub as a main load?
If so, a better idea, than using 4F as a helper load would be to drill the touch hole out to 5/64th and use a large amount of 4F in the pan. So much that it makes a path to the main sub charge. Make sure it gets into the larger sized touch hole.
I have done this and it works, to a fashion. Maybe well enough for you. :grin:

 

[Col. Batguano]

Somebody out there has done it before. It can't be all That different than what the smokeless guys do when developing loads with different powders. But, they also have chamber pressure measuring equipment.

Muzzle velocity won't tell you the whole story. Different powders with different burning rates yielding identical muzzle velocities will yield vastly different chamber pressure curves. Some will be safer than others.

Because it's faster than 3F, it's going to produce a higher initial breech pressure, and complete it's burn sooner in the barrel than a larger grained powder. That's most of the reason why they use faster powders in pistols than they do in rifles, and slow powders often give you a larger muzzle flash.

 

[Billnpatti]

The manufacturers warn against using 4f as a charge in your rifle. The finer granulation means that it burns faster and reaches maximum pressure quicker. The pressure peak goes higher than an equal amount of 3f because the powder burns up faster and the ball hasn't had a chance to move down the bore. It acts like an obstruction in the barrel and can result in an over pressure. Some folks may do it and get away with it but I sure won't use it as my main charge. It is sort of like a tight rope walker walking across Niagra Falls. He may do it successfully but I sure wouldn't try it nor would I ride across on his shoulders. Stick with granulations of 3f or larger and save the 4f for your pan. It's just safer that way.

 

[BGRooster1]

Buddy of mine has been doing it in small cals for the last 50+ years, defining "small" as 40 and under. He's conservative and doesn't push the idea on anyone else, but sezz his father always did it too, so he has kind of a "background" with it.

Only thing I notice, most of his smaller cals that have been shot for years are real flame throwers. He doesn't hog out the touch hole with iron picks or the like, but all of them are suffering from oversize touch holes these days. Erosion? Could be. You definitely want to watch your footwork when you're shooting around the guy.

I have heard and read the same for the small caliber rifles and for revolvers . I use it in my .31 Remmington Pocket Pistol . You can't put enough in a revolver to hurt anything.Rifles up to the .40 with light charges would be no problem.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

I would occasionally run into a shooter that used 4f in his 28 caliber flint rifle. But the charges were so slight I don't think it much mattered.

I simply won't take the risk with my guns my fingers or my face.

 

[Dphar]

I would avoid FFFF as a main charge.

Dan

 

[jdkerstetter]

I would avoid FFFF as a main charge.

Dan

It's not like you to be so understated Dan. This is one of the times that you can let it fly.

In fact I was waiting anxiously for you to do so.:wink: Enjoy, J.D.

 

[hanshi]

I would avoid FFFF as a main charge.

Dan

I cannot think of a better answer or a better way to express it than you just did. :thumbsup:

 

[jdkerstetter]

That is true....but I was hoping for the science. You know Dan is usually pretty good at providing the exact reasons he has formed a given opinion or providing plenty of reference when stating fact.

He must have been in a hurry. :wink: Enjoy, J.D.

 

[cynthialee]

Are you implying Dan is long winded?
:haha:

 

[jdkerstetter]

I, like Dan, rarely imply anything. :grin: Enjoy, J.D.

 

[nkbj]

BP is BP. Changing the grain size slightly alters the burn rate and the pressure.
Use your top knot.

 

[Zonie]

BP is BP. Changing the grain size slightly alters the burn rate and the pressure.
Use your top knot.

Yup it does.

A .45 cal 28" barrel with a 1:48 twist shooting a patched .440 diameter roundball in Lymans BLACK POWDER HANDBOOK & LOADING MANUAL (2nd ed) says that 80 grains of GOEX 2Fg powder created a breech pressure of 12,300 psi.
By switching to GOEX 3Fg powder the pressure went to 15,300 psi.
No report on what 4F powder would do but you can be sure that breech pressure is going to go higher.

In the first edition of Lymans book they did list some 4F loads and pressures but they removed them from the 2nd edition.
Could be due to lawyers.
Could be due to figuring out that 4F powder should not be used as a prime powder charge.

Just my opinion here but when folks start talking about pressures over 10,000 psi, their talking about some very serious pressures that can do a hell of a lot of damage if they ever escape. Remember folks, the barrels and breech plugs on our rifles are not made out of heat treated high strength alloy steel. Almost all of these guns are made out of low carbon mild steel with limited strength.

 

[hornetk4]

FFFF as the main charge?
about 20 or more years back I just barely remember there was a fellow that was advertizing a formula for using 4f ass a main charge ,he made all kinds of claims of better accurassy flatter shooting higher velocity less powder usage and a few other things I can't remember right now but the catch was you had to send him 29 bucks for his load data,I don't remember what publication I read this in,I never bothered to check into it back then 29 bucks would buy a lot of powder.I just stuck with 2 an 3f it's always worked for me.

 

[Dennis McAtee]

Thanks guys. That info helps alot. I will quit doing that just in case I would have too much pressure.