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Trying to understand this “short arbor” on Uberti revolvers

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Looking at my original Colt the arbor bottoms out in the barrel assembly and the slot in the arbor is straight across at the front and back. On a Pietta the front of the slot is cut with two angles to form an arch. The original 1849 was made in 1860 and is tight and solid so I contend that Colt knew how to fit up a revolver. Just a side note the barrel cylinder gap is .0025” on this Colt.
 
Uberti cannot replicate the original fitting of these revolvers at this price point, all the Colts were hand fitted and assembled during a time when this was how quality firearms were made.

Bear in mind Colt was at the top of the food chain as far as revolvers and they were very expensive. They weren't just throwing them together.

Uberti I'll bet uses a fair amount of CNC and AutoCAD type stuff to make the guns and I'm sure the Italian craftsmen are very skilled when assembling them
The guns are gorgeous and all my Ubertis have perfect actions. However if each one had perfect Arbor fitting and everything else, they would cost $1000+ and few people will pay that.

The solution is to pay someone like Goons Guns to "finish " the process and you end up with a perfectly fitted Uberti Colt with $3-400 in work or you can just leave it as is and most likely be just fine.
 
Uberti I'll bet uses a fair amount of CNC and AutoCAD type stuff to make the guns and I'm sure the Italian craftsmen are very skilled when assembling them
I programmed and ran CNC machines before retiring and to change the length of an arbor would be just a few key strokes to match the hole depth in the barrel. The amount of material added would be quite small but the quality of the product is improved in seconds. Then save the changed program for years of use.
 
So, I guess Uberti does not care if their production revolvers, particularly the 1851 Navy, has the proper arbor/arbor recess fit. :confused:

Regards,

Jim
 
I've tried figuring out how to ask Uberti about the "short arbor" with little success. Wiki-icky claims three importers: Stoeger, Taylor's, and Cimarron. And Benelli told me Dixie is also an importer. But, the only U.S. Uberti contact I found is:
Stoeger Industries
Attn.: Service Department
901 Eighth Street
Pocomoke, MD 21851
Phone: (301) 283-6981 (option 2) or (800) 264-4962 (option 2)
This is if your Uberti is marked Stoeger, which mine definitely aren't. At the back of the Uberti catalog (download) are contacts for the company, in Italy, if someone is fluent in Italian. I'm not. Any ideas anyone on how to get an answer from Uberti themselves?
 
I have tried to correspond with both Uberti and Pietta in the past, and have only elicited one response from Pietta (concerning the Dance .36 revolvers they made in 1996 and possible future production of these guns) and they basically told me that they would run it by their marketing division. Basically, no response at all, and that is the last and only response I received. They never once admitted to the fact that they were bound by law due to a contractual dispute to never produce another Dance .36, and that is why they now only produce the mongrel Dance .44.

Back in the early 2010's, there was much pushback (dislike) about the Pietta 1851 Navy so-called "tail" gripframe on many BP forums that Pietta went to a style in 2015 that somewhat resembles the Uberti 1851 Navy gripframe, which many people think is the "correct" profile. That leads me to believe that someone at Pietta management monitors some forums, as I cannot fathom any other reason for the change.

Regards,

Jim
 
Italian gunmakers are notoriously hard to communicate with. I think Italy just has a different kind of business model.

My friends Dad is big into Italian motorcycles, like big, and he's always trying to get Ducati parts for older bikes. He always basically gets told he'll have to work with a dealer and he'll get the parts when he gets them . It seems Italian manufacturers shut down for numerous breaks and vacations, because unlike Americans they believe in a work / life balance. So it takes a long time to get stuff and they're usually very vague.

It may be that Uberti is doing better with the fitting of these revolvers, and it often varies depending on the model, across the board.

For example ArmiSport makes extra sure their 1842 Springfield line is really well QC'd because those muskets are heavily used in European competition .

They know the vast majority of their rifles like the 1861 will be used by reenactors for blanks or the occasional fun shooter so they don't put as much fitting into those.

Uberti seems to care more about the big Colts. Those big name Hungarian match shooters and a lot of the American YouTubers do a lot with Dragoons and Walkers, so they pay attention to that.

Pietta probably does a really good job on their LeMats , I would think.
 
This horse is beaten to death. There are those who believe fixing a short arbor is important and those who wrongly believe it does not and never the twain shall meet.
So just give it up.
Bunk (a believer)
 
The problem is you that believe it is so important have probably not actually tested your theory's out. Ok so Colt supposedly actually custom fit the arbor to the well end (which I seriously doubt) in their production guns, that does not prove a thing in actual accuracy comparison.
My guess is Uberti found it unnecessary and much easier to produce.
The other thing is if you look down the well hole in a Pietta it will most likely not be flat ended but rather be a shallow cone in the end which is not a good end stop for a flat ended arbor.
You can drop washers down until it fits snugly but still will never be exact. You can drill and tap the end of arbor and thread in an adjustment screw but this weakens the arbor slot . If you want the closest possible fit then glass bedding is your best and easiest option. If glass bed is your choice be sure to grease the well and arbor end and model clay plug the slot.
And one more thing , I don't have a vintage Colt to actually check but my guess is they don't bottom out with any consistency either especially as the gun gets some wear on it.
A CNC (computer numerated control) driven lathe or mill is only as good as it's calibration and the accuracy potential of the machine it is guiding . It's only accuracy advantage is in speed of repeatability. Minute machine accuracy was going on long before computer numeration LEDs were invented.
 
The problem is you that believe it is so important have probably not actually tested your theory's out. Ok so Colt supposedly actually custom fit the arbor to the well end (which I seriously doubt) in their production guns, that does not prove a thing in actual accuracy comparison.
My personal experience with the short arbor was not so much the ‘accuracy’, as it was to functionality. I was using Colt clones in SASS a while back, and at times reloads were required during completion while on the clock. Tried two methods, pre made paper cartridges or a cylinder swap. The paper cartridge reload was doable, though time consuming (remember, this is a time based competition, and many times someone shooting an open top or a Remington NMA would be the only one doing so), plus the reload had to be done without breaking any of the muzzle sweeping rules. The cylinder swap was potentially much easier and definitely quicker. The problem with the short arbor was the tendency to drive the wedge in too far, closing the cylinder gap and jamming the gun. You had to check and make sure the cylinder was moving freely and adjust the wedge before capping. May not seem like a big deal, but you were on the clock. Some guns would seem to hang up with just firm thumb pressure. With the arbor the correct length, you could not close up that cylinder gap with a mallet. A quick bump with the pummel of your knife handle and you were good to go.

As far as accuracy, as you drove in the wedge, you could raise or lower the POI depending on how far you drove it in. In SASS it didn’t really matter as we were trying to ring relatively large steel targets at close range.
My guess is Uberti found it unnecessary and much easier to produce.
The most recent Uberti Walker I worked on had an arbor about an eighth of an inch too short. Definitely an acceptable tolerance if I were building a wooden stockade fence in the the back yard...... but for a handgun?
You can drop washers down until it fits snugly but still will never be exact.
Agree. What we did was confirm measurements with shims until the cylinder gap was correct, then made a single piece the correct size and pressed/Loctited into the barrel assembly.
I don't have a vintage Colt to actually check but my guess is they don't bottom out with any consistency either especially as the gun gets some wear on it.
We checked two different vintage Colts (both with all matching serial numbers) and found both to put .003”/.005” pre-load on the bottom of the frame. To confirm we used shims (.002” to .006”) in the hole in the barrel assembly to find when the barrel and frame made contact. Do not know if that is how the guns left the factory, but that is how the were found 150 plus years later.

Below is a photo of a Pietta (sold by Navy Arms) before the change to CNC machining. Arbor is about a .100” short, similar to the latest Ubertis I have seen.
1608070776941.jpeg


Not an expert. Just stating my observations and opinion.
 
For a speed reload it makes perfect sense my only point has ever been that the arbor does not have to bottom out for the pistol to accurate.
You are correct about accuracy, but find that is only true with a single assembly and/or a very meticulous gun assembler. Let someone else assemble a gun that requires a certain amount of thumb pressure, and they will likely be off the target at 75 yards. Everyone’s idea of the perfect amount of force is different. I prefer a hard mechanical stop rather than relying on it ‘feels like it’s good’ thumb pressure.

As a totally different example, my bride was not so good backing her vehicle into the garage (pre backup cameras). She could not understand why I had placed empty plastic garbage cans in the garage directly behind her ‘target area’ (I was afraid she would go up the steps and wind up in the kitchen). Placed hard plastic pads with distinctive bumps that were difficult to drive over on the floor in her garage bay. She immediately became an expert at backing up into the garage. No backup ‘until it feels like it should be right’. Simply stop on the hard stop.

Again, just my opinion.
 
A few points of interest to add to this discussion.
Original Colt open tops had arbors that bottomed out in their recesses. Also the end of the arbor slots had a taper that corresponded to the wedge taper forming a wedge pack when they were joined.
Some open top replicas ASM Palmetto etc. did not have a corresponding taper in the arbor slot.
Both Uberti and Pietta have the corresponding taper although with Pietta, as earlier mentioned, has an arch on each side of the arbor slot the 1/4in pad in the center has the correct taper.
Uberti tried a fix for the short arbor by increasing the diameter of the arbor slightly at the point there the barrel lug met the frame. This was a bad idea as with any force on the wedge the barrel arbor hole would be forced onto the larger diameter making the gun hard to take down. This is the reason why all the reports on folks having a problem taking down new in the box Ubertis. After a number of takedowns the arbor hole in the barrel becomes wallowed out and the fix is done.
A Colt open top with a short arbor can shoot accurately with careful assembly. However the wedge can not do its job of loading the two units into one assembly.
On barrel cylinder gap I find that .002 is about ideal. Fouling build up on the cylinder face is not the source of binding rather it is fouling directed on the arbor that causes binding and a close barrel cylinder gap minimizes that.
 
A few points of interest to add to this discussion.
Original Colt open tops had arbors that bottomed out in their recesses. Also the end of the arbor slots had a taper that corresponded to the wedge taper forming a wedge pack when they were joined.
Some open top replicas ASM Palmetto etc. did not have a corresponding taper in the arbor slot.
Both Uberti and Pietta have the corresponding taper although with Pietta, as earlier mentioned, has an arch on each side of the arbor slot the 1/4in pad in the center has the correct taper.
Uberti tried a fix for the short arbor by increasing the diameter of the arbor slightly at the point there the barrel lug met the frame. This was a bad idea as with any force on the wedge the barrel arbor hole would be forced onto the larger diameter making the gun hard to take down. This is the reason why all the reports on folks having a problem taking down new in the box Ubertis. After a number of takedowns the arbor hole in the barrel becomes wallowed out and the fix is done.
A Colt open top with a short arbor can shoot accurately with careful assembly. However the wedge can not do its job of loading the two units into one assembly.
On barrel cylinder gap I find that .002 is about ideal. Fouling build up on the cylinder face is not the source of binding rather it is fouling directed on the arbor that causes binding and a close barrel cylinder gap minimizes that.
Here is a photograph of a 1997 Uberti Walker with a short and tapered arbor. Had more photos but Photobucket claimed them. My notes/memory indicated that this particular sample stopped .080” short of position on the arbor’s tapered diameter (it was a press or force fit beyond that point) before it was given a haircut. You can see the factory ‘handwork’ on the arbor. Not sure how this technique saved a lot of labor, as the arbors were still hand fit to the barrel assembly to a point, ultimately riding on a not so perfect tapered fit. The good old days....
1608157069741.jpeg
 
A few points of interest to add to this discussion.
Original Colt open tops had arbors that bottomed out in their recesses. Also the end of the arbor slots had a taper that corresponded to the wedge taper forming a wedge pack when they were joined.
Some open top replicas ASM Palmetto etc. did not have a corresponding taper in the arbor slot.
Both Uberti and Pietta have the corresponding taper although with Pietta, as earlier mentioned, has an arch on each side of the arbor slot the 1/4in pad in the center has the correct taper.
Uberti tried a fix for the short arbor by increasing the diameter of the arbor slightly at the point there the barrel lug met the frame. This was a bad idea as with any force on the wedge the barrel arbor hole would be forced onto the larger diameter making the gun hard to take down. This is the reason why all the reports on folks having a problem taking down new in the box Ubertis. After a number of takedowns the arbor hole in the barrel becomes wallowed out and the fix is done.
A Colt open top with a short arbor can shoot accurately with careful assembly. However the wedge can not do its job of loading the two units into one assembly.
On barrel cylinder gap I find that .002 is about ideal. Fouling build up on the cylinder face is not the source of binding rather it is fouling directed on the arbor that causes binding and a close barrel cylinder gap minimizes that.
I will need to try your close gap theory to see if true as I have never set mine that close but I do know your idea about arbor fouling being the cause of cylinder lock is not completely correct. The reason is because if you wipe the cylinder face off the best you can and not remove any of the arbor fouling the revolver will again cycle.
 
Here are some pictures of the gunsmithing that was done on my Uberti 1860 Army with arbor fix. Plus it has been fixed with a 1873 hand spring, light main spring, and trigger& lock bolt spring and complete tuning job. The action is smooth as silk on glass, with short hammer throw and solid cylinder lock up. Along with SliXshot nipples. The gun shots great, easy cock with smooth lite trigger pull. Enjoy it a bunch.
I didn`t have this done. I was lucky enough to buy it this way.
Maurice
 

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I will need to try your close gap theory to see if true as I have never set mine that close but I do know your idea about arbor fouling being the cause of cylinder lock is not completely correct. The reason is because if you wipe the cylinder face off the best you can and not remove any of the arbor fouling the revolver will again cycle.
I presume that you understand that every time you cock an open top you are wiping the face of the upcoming chamber since as the cylinder rotates it is pushed into contact with the barrel.
 
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