"They trusted in God And kept their powder dry."

[rudy parnell]

I am refering to pages 98 and 99 of "Kings Mountain", by Hank Messick. Want to know if the author has it right about the Jacob Dickert Rifle. Men come in from Virginia and Georiga and North Carolina and South Carolina and Watauga [ the Holston Valley of what is now Tenn. ],did they mostly carry rifles made in Lancaster, Pennsylvania ? I know that this question...that is, What were the arms? has been tossed around and debated with great enthusiasm.....thing is it seems to me that historians put the Rebels at tremendous odds to gain any success against the British.....save the big equalizer...that being the American Long Rifle. Shame that we don't know more. By the By ....what do ya'll think of the history that Mister Hank Messick writes ? Looks authentic to me but would appreciate comments and opinions. Many thanks.

 

[CrackStock]

There are debates regarding the terms, "Deckhard" and Dickert when discussing barrels and rifles. Many people believe that both refer to the contract rifle components and finished guns that Jacob Dickert supplied to the government during his maufacturing time. His barrels enjoyed a fine reputation. On the other hand, others believe that the name simply moved beyond specific barrels made by him and became the generic name for all government contract barrels as he did take on some subcontracting barrels. Still others have argued that there may have been someone named Deckhard, but I find that unlikely. Variations of the German name DICKERT are:
DECKERT,DECHARD,DECHERT,DESCHARD so...

A reference by James Whisker from his very helpful site at[url] http://www.kingsownpatriots.org/NCM.html:[/url]

373. Henry, Patrick Henry, 2: 65. The reference to Deckard rifles is interesting. Jacob Dickert (1740-1822) was born in Germany, emigrated to America in 1748, and settled in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, after living briefly in Berks County, Pa. He operated a large gunshop in Lancaster, where he was an important figure in the development of the uniquely American product, the Pennsylvania long rifle, also commonly called the "Kentucky rifle." Stacy B. C. Wood, Jr. and James B. Whisker. Arms Makers of Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. (Bedford, PA: Old Bedford Village Press, 1991, 14-15. We find another, later reference to Dickert's products by name in an advertisement of merchant Robert Barr for "Dechard rifle guns." Kentucky Gazette, 1 September 1787.

This same site gives some interesting numbers regarding the number of rifles and there is a discussion of the ordering of muskets under the Committee of Safety standards. I have seen mention of captured muskets and French supplied muskets to other units at various times. I believe that most rifles were supplied by the individual under programs designed to encourage that situation.

I will try yo get some more site references, but that is all that I can get right now.

See ya soon Slippy!

CS

 

[rudy parnell]

Thanks for the help CS. I didn't realize that the name was being used to describe all similar rifle guns being used at the time. Makes sense. Also, I had no idea that rifle parts and barrels were being made under contract. Makes you wonder why the British or the Loyalists didn't destroy these assets. They sure made it rough on the Rebels down south. Maybe it was business as usual in the North....since the War had been fought to a stalmate. I am not a historian...nor do I have access to the real foundation documents...but it is kinda queer that Cornwallis launches a three prong attack from the South to put an end to the Revolution and the entire fate of the nation rests with a bunch of Mongrels and Barbarians from out and around the Blue Mountains. Say, I tried to bring up the website you offered but it is no longer available...lest I couldn't tap into it.

 

[Okwaho]

There are debates regarding the terms, "Deckhard" and Dickert when discussing barrels and rifles. Many people believe that both refer to the contract rifle components and finished guns that Jacob Dickert supplied to the government during his maufacturing time. His barrels enjoyed a fine reputation. On the other hand, others believe that the name simply moved beyond specific barrels made by him and became the generic name for all government contract barrels as he did take on some subcontracting barrels. Still others have argued that there may have been someone named Deckhard, but I find that unlikely. Variations of the German name DICKERT are:
DECKERT,DECHARD,DECHERT,DESCHARD so...

A reference by James Whisker from his very helpful site at[url] http://www.kingsownpatriots.org/NCM.html:[/url]

373. Henry, Patrick Henry, 2: 65. The reference to Deckard rifles is interesting. Jacob Dickert (1740-1822) was born in Germany, emigrated to America in 1748, and settled in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, after living briefly in Berks County, Pa. He operated a large gunshop in Lancaster, where he was an important figure in the development of the uniquely American product, the Pennsylvania long rifle, also commonly called the "Kentucky rifle." Stacy B. C. Wood, Jr. and James B. Whisker. Arms Makers of Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. (Bedford, PA: Old Bedford Village Press, 1991, 14-15. We find another, later reference to Dickert's products by name in an advertisement of merchant Robert Barr for "Dechard rifle guns." Kentucky Gazette, 1 September 1787.
CS

This is a classic example of an incorrect or undocumented statement which after being put into print and through successive citations and quotes has reached the status of fact.Jacob Dickert was, as stated by others, a very proficient and able gunsmith. He worked from about 1761 until probably a short time before his death in 1822.His guns were always signed "J Dickert" In 1787 his daughter married James Gill, a Lancaster dry goods merchant and for a number of years he and Gill were engaged in selling dry goods and guns.Some "Dickert and Gill"guns are known to exist and the partnership was dissolved after Gill's death in 1796.

The undocumented statement referring to "Dechard" rifles apparently appeared for the first time in King's Mountain And It's Heroes" by Lyman C. Draper,L.L.D.{1881}P.175:
"mostly armed with the Deckard rifle in the use of which they were expert..."
A footnote on the same page purports to offer a further note.
"A century ago the Deckard or Dickert rifle was largely manufactured at Lancaster,Pennsylvania by a person of that name.It was,for that period a gun of remarkable precision for a long shot,spiral grooved with a barrel some thirty inches long,and with it's stock some three and a half or four feet carrying bullets varying from thirty to seventy to the pound of lead.The owner of a Deckard rifle at that day rejoiced in it's possession."
Since then I have seen that quote,usually without proper attribution several[url] times.In[/url]"The Battle of King's Mountain 1780 WITH FIRE and SWORD" {1978} by Wilma Dykeman appears this quote on PP.42-43,
"The Pride of many a participant was his long rifle.Remarkable for the precision and distance of it's shot,this rifle was also known as the Deckard or Dickert rifle,after it's maker in Lancaster,Pa.The ownerof one of these long heavy rifles 'rejoiced in it's possession'."

To date I do not know of any serious student or collector of Pennsylvania and more particularly Lancaster rifles,who accepts the "Deckard fantasy".Henry J. Kaufman in "The Pennsylvania Kentucky Rifle" on P.211 referring to Dickert, states,"And an undocumented source tells that a number of his guns were used at the battle of King's Mountain."I do not doubt that there might have been Dickert rifles at King's Mountain but to date I don't believe that any use of Dickert guns there has been[url] documented.In[/url] fact the consensus of opinion is that there are no rifles extant definitely known to have been at King's Mountain.I can also find no proof of any gunsmith named "Deckard,Deckart, Decherd,Deschard,or Dechard nor can I find any proof that these names were variant spellings of Dickert.

As to the advertisement by Robert Barr in the Sept.1 1787 issue of the Kentucke{y}Gazette offering "Dechard rifle guns",I seriously doubt these guns were manufactured by Jacob Dickert either personally or by journeymen in his shop.I guess "knock offs" aren't a new concept.I would like see any original documentation offered by Wood and Whisker as to the "Dechard rifle guns" guns offered by Barr as being actually Dickert's products.

For two excellent sources for information on Jacob Dickert,I would recommend most highly the following:1"The Pennsylvania Kentucky Rifle" by Henry J. Kaufman{1960}PP.209-211
Joe Kindig Jr."Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in It's Golden Age",PP.81-86 in particular with other references scattered throughout the book.
George Shumway,"Rifles Of Colonial America" Vol.I PP.203-217 and 279-291.I These are three very informative sources and for myself personally preferable to the Wood-Whisker book.
I have rambled on long enough.
Tom Patton.

 

[CrackStock]

Okwahoe,

I think that we are not all that far off in what we are saying. I am tossing out some info regarding Dickert and the tales about the quality of those guns. I also know that there is controversy regarding rifles that people have claimed were present, most notably a Tennessee looking gun that looks to be of a later period but which a prominent author featured as having been at that battle. I also have Kindig's book. I have also met people who have come up with a variety of guns which they purport represent guns from this event.

But back to the question asked, I suspect that the rifles present were mostly produced from Virgina to Pennsylvania. Do you disagree? What do you figure these guns looked like? I think that this is what Slippy was wanting to learn. He also likes to read, so please send him some sources that he can track down. (Kindig is a particularly good one)

Do you think that the weapons of the Continentals were exclusively rifles? I think not. I suspect that there were a lot more smoothbore muskets involved on the Continental side than is commonly stated, but that the use of rifles outshown the muskets and this was the tale commonly told.

Slippy Foot try:[url] http://www.kingsownpatriots.org/[/url]
for the above mentioned site. From there go to the History and Documents.

As to variations of spellings of German names, Doelle, Dell, Doll, DÖll, and others are all the same name. Anyone trying to track down that info would be hard pressed to find this in modern writings, but it is true nonetheless. My point is that this Deckhard could be a creative spelling of Dickert; it could be another builder or it could have been a generic name that was concocted long after. I do not have an opinion as to which, but was just putting out info on the topic and I thought that I was labelling it as such. I hope that I was clear in this.

I do enjoy your input as always, although I think that I may have struck a nerve with you.

CS

 

[Okwaho]

CS,you really didn't strike a nerve,it's just that this is,as I said,a classic example of an undocumented statement reaching the level of fact through repeated repetitions.I have never heard of a rifle made by Jacob Dickert or which came from his shop which wasn't signed "J DICKERT" in script,although there were some "Dickert & Gill" rifles dating 1787-1796. See Henry J.Kaufman,"The Pennsylvania Kentucky Rifle" P.210 for a picture of Dickert's signature on a barrel.Dickert was a very prolific maker who worked for some 50-60 years and turned out a lot of rifles many of whom were made by apprentices and/or journeymen.I don't question one or more of his guns being present at King's mountain but I do question the name Dechard or any variation thereof as being possibly used by Dickert and found on a Dickert rifle.As to his barrels being highly regarded I suspect that many of them were later restocked and/or remounted. I believe that such a gun with a Dickert barrel was thought to have been at the Alamo and possibly carried by Crockett.

As to the rifles used at King's Mountain as far as I know NONE have been substantiated as having been at King's Mountain.The book,"The Sword and The Lord Of Gideon",A Catalogue of Historical Objects Related to the Battle of King's Mountain by James C. Kelly and William C. Baker of the Tennessee State Museum illustrates two rifles alleged to have been at the battle.Phillip Greever's rifle {PP.8-9} supposed to have fired the first shot on October 7,1780 can hardly date before the 1820-1835 period.The rifle owned by Robert Young and called "Sweet Lips"{pp.20-21} is alleged to have fired one of the shots which killed Patrick Ferguson but it's dating to 1780 is also questionable.I am not familiar with the "Tennessee looking gun" or the prominent author who attributes King's Mountain usage to it.I would like to know who he is and see a picture of the gun.There was a web site sometime ago owned by a gunsmith specializing in Kentucky's and he showed an old gun reputed to have been at King's Mountain but it just didn't look right. I went back later and couldn't find the old gun on his site so who knows?

As to the origin of the guns used at King's Mountain,I would hazard a guess that rifles both rifle guns and smooth rifles predominated although doubtless there were muskets and fowlers used there.A crude composite European style musket is also shown on P.24 of The Sword and the Lord but sadly authentication of ownership tied to a known participant is lacking.I am sure that guns made from Pennsylvania to North Carolina were carried at the battle but with no known rifles extant the place of origin will have to remain unknown.As to books on the subject, the ones by Shumway {both volumes},Kindig,and Kaufman remain the ones I would recommend. I haven't seen "The Longrifles of North Carolina" by John Bivens but suspect that it is worth reading.Wallace Gusler has been writing on early{Ca.1760-Ca.1780's} probable Southern rifles in a series of articles in Muzzle Blasts and has shown some guns from the Moravian gun shop at Old Salem, North Carolina including two excavated examples from Alabama and/or Mississippi which could predate the Revolutionary war and certainly the Battle of King's mountain in 1780.This is an area of study which has seen very little serious research due primarily to the scarcity of documented,signed,and attributable examples.
Tom Patton

 

[CrackStock]

Alexander Clege's rifle mentioned and pictured in John Dillin's The Kentucky Rifle page 116.

CS

 

[Okwaho]

Alexander Clege's rifle mentioned and pictured in John Dillin's The Kentucky Rifle page 116.

CS

I don't think one can put much reliance in Dillin's book in it's original edition due to the time elapsed since he wrote it. There are a lot of problems with that book. As to Alexander Clege,I cannot locate him on any of the King's Mountain rosters available on the internet so I will have to hit the library for the others.Somewhere in the back of my mind I remember seeing a picture of that rifle. I believe it was a rather plain mountain rifle with maybe a grease hole so I will also check that one out.
Tom Patton

 

One of the aspects of your original question concerned the rebel's rifles being "equalizers". In some respects that is over emphasized, and at King's Mt both sides were armed with rifles (and probably other guns). Terrain and "attitude" were the "equalizers" at King's Mt. Ferguson had enraged the over the mountain boys with his proclaimations and activities and they were ready for a fight. The rifle had a major role in several southern battles, but Washington's main army I understand was mainly armed with muskets. Every example I have seen of a so-called King's Mt rifle looks too late period to have been so. Perhaps Dickerts were there, perhaps "Decchards" was a generic term like "Deringer"became(or like Kleenix today for tissues). I suspect there were PA made as well as VA and CAR made guns in use there.

 

[Stophel]

I do NOT believe that "Deckhard", "Dickert", or anything else was ever used in the 18th century as a "generic" term for a rifle. If it was a Dickert gun, then by golly, it was a Dickert gun. If it wasn't, it wasn't. "Derringer" BECAME generic after a long period of people fraudulently putting his name on their cheaper guns...

The "Clege" rifle looks POST 1830! This book has an awful lot of "pre-Revolutionary" Adam and Peter Angstadt rifles.... :winking:

 

[CrackStock]

Tom,

I stated that I believed that the Dillin King's Mountain gun was a later gun initially and that some info about it was suspect. I merely referenced it after you asked about the gun that I mentioned in the earlier post.

Mike and Dicke Kraut,

I do think that the term Dickert became a euphamism for a well made rifle -- particularly the barrel. I also think that the reputation went beyond barrels marked with his name since they misspelled it in writings in spite of the fact that it was written on each one. This leads me to conclude that the name became almost a universal term for a quality barrel.

Maybe Tom will chime in here and opine on the Deckhard/Dickert barrel terms. Was there a Deckhard who built gun barrels and hid under the radar of history? Was this a misspelling of Dickert by people simply alluding to a quality barrel or gun?

CS

 

[Okwaho]

CS,I should have known that you were talking about Dillin in your earlier post but it just slid by me.As to the Dechard/Decherd dichotomy and I have seen both used,I cannot find any reference to that name as being connected to any facet of gunmaking.The closest I have found is the Drepperd family,Andrew,John,and John Jr.who made locks in Lancaster,Pa. in the 19th century. The name is often found spelled in several ways,Trippert,Trippart,Tripperd,Dreppert,and Drepperd.Oddly the Drepperd name spelled with T terminals usually appears on flintlocks,while the D terminals usually appear on percussion locks. Henry J. Kaufman, "The Pennsylvania Kentucky Rifle" by Henry J. Kaufman,Ch. 5,"Locks of Pennsylvania Rifles".Kaufman in Plate 235,p.287 illustrates a rare side hammer or "Mule Ear" lock by Drepperd.
As to the Decherd/Dickert dichotomy I suggest that it all began with a probable chance statement by a Southern mountaineer who made a reference to a Dickert rifle and pronounced the name as sounding like "Decherd" and Lyman F. Draper in "King's Mountain And It's Heroes",P.175 quoted him and then compounded the error in a footnote by associating the term Decherd with "Dickert" with absolutely no documentation as stated by Kaufman: "And an undocumented source tells that a number of his guns were used at the battle of King's Mountain",biography on Jacob Dickert,PP.209-211 @ 211.The Draper quote began to be used{I cited one example by Wilma Dykeman}and has now apparently become ingrained in regards to Dickert.I agree with Chris in his post comparing the Decherd/Dickert dichotomy with the small pistols made by Derringer. I cannot remember any such usage of the name Dickert to denote Kentucky rifles in such fashion. There,the closest example would be the 20th century usage of the name "Bean" to describe upper East Tennessee rifles in general.As to the quote from Wood and Whisker who stated that a merchant named Robert Barr in advertising "Dechard" guns in the september 1 1787 edition of the Kentucke{Y}Gazette was advertising Dickert guns"by name",I think their conclusion {if quoted accurately} is highly suspect and they are the prominent author{s} to whom I thought you might have been referring in your earlier post regarding the"Tennessee looking gun".These are my opinions and as always I welcome responsible conflicting opinions and I have this one caveat:You get what you pay for.I guess I had better climb down from this pedestal having said enough.
Tom Patton

 

[CrackStock]

Don't climb down, I was enjoying the discussion.
:hatsoff:

You know a lot more than I do and I like to learn.

I would point out that a terminal "erd" is pronounced as we would "ert". This is not to say that I have primary source of period variations of Jacob Dickert's name.

CS

 

[rudy parnell]

Take a look at the Battle of Cowpens,http://www.sciway.net/city/history/cowpens-sc-history.html. I have read that as many as 200 of the participants at the Battle of Kings Mountain were present. You will notice that General Daniel Morgan is noted for his employ of Sharpshooters. I think that this tactic demonstrates that the American Long Rifle was the great equalizer. I am not aware of many nuiances of history that would challenge that truism. Not that familar with how the hunting rifle was used in General Washington's Army in the north. But, the weapon is only as good as the man behind the sights and the tactics used on the battlefield. Thanks for your comments and for all others. I have much to learn...I will say that I am particularily amazed that the Rebel forces in the South were able to emerge victorious aganist the ,"Greatest Soldier in the British Army",General Cornwallis.

 

[Stophel]

Only by adopting European linear tactics, and muskets and bayonets!!! :winking:

 

[rudy parnell]

The British had a "Grasshopper" or three pound cannon that they used to effect. Again I am not very familar with the tactics. My reading indicates that most of the engagements were not that complicated on the part of the Americans...but the British were sophistcated.Look at General Jackson and the "Battle for New Orleans". His plan was to simply out shoot'um and cut'um. He put his cannon on solid ground and he put his Sharpshooters in the defense. No linear tactics. Truth is I don't fully comphrehend your posting...but I have read how the Romans would attack in column...this coupled with cooridination from Calvary and Artillery was the basic plan for the British. The Americans used envelopment...surprize...field
expedience and initiative.They also used the terrain and manuever and finally, Leadership. But, in the south anyway...it seems to me that the American Long Rifle in the hands of a Frontiersman was the key to success. No doubt we used butcher knives, hawks, smoothbores, and fowling pieces...and many were hung by a rope!

 

[nchawkeye]

Anybody else ever think how fortunate we are to have had German (Moravians) in the back country and hard drinking, fighting Scots...who had heard for years stories of how their ancesters did battle with England years before....And now the Germans bring their rifle making skills into this country and the Scots bring their fighting nature in and take it out on the British....With their rifles...Amazing how things came together...

 

[rudy parnell]

You might refer to the "Battle of Brown Meadows", which is described in great detail at the following website:http://www.touchinghistory.co.uk/AWI%20Rutherford%20Brown%20Meadow.htm. Here General Griffin Rutherford attacks the British and uses the Sharpshooters to wither the British right flank. In this case the Americans were outnumbered and out flanked. They also were met with cannon fire of deadly effect. Maybe there is much in what you state ... linear tactics. One thing is for sure...it wasn't a one sided affair in the Carolinas. And for sure, there were plenty of bravehearts of both sides. I am glad that I never had to face the bores of a rolling volley!Or the muzzle of a Sharpshooter! I'm thankful and respectful of those who did.