The India-made Untouchables

[coloradoclyde]

Only 34,999 I wasn't there. :wink:

 

[zimmerstutzen]

I visited nationals twice about 25 years ago. I can't say how many thousands of folks were there. But it was many times larger than any of the 20 Eastern rondys I have been to.

 

[Artificer]

35,000? As in thirty-five-thousand!?

Yes, indeed. The largest one I remember was right at 40,000 shooters, though numbers have fallen off more recently due to the economy and interest in Cowboy Action Shooting. When I heard the numbers I admit I was surprised. However over the years from the Spring Shoot of 1974, they lengthened the number of days to shoot from a weekend to four or five days just to accommodate all the shooters. The number of shooters on the line each day were/are almost unbelievable. Movie and Film companies came to record the sounds of firing to use in their films including "Gettysburg" and others.

Each Team is required to "work" a Nationals every few years just to have enough people to run the match and do the logistics. I have forgotten how many teams are assigned that duty at each National Shoot. The year I worked in the Target Shed, in the late 90's, I remember more than 25 people assigned (one day more than 40) and it took into the third day to separate and count out the targets for the Individual Teams. Thank Heavens we were not actually MAKING the targets as they were pre-printed. There was another target shed where clay pigeons and other targets were counted out and prepared as well. After that, we set up the Pistol Range for another day and part of a day. Other groups set up the Musket Range and Cannon Range. Other groups cleaned the Toilet Houses and that was ongoing throughout the shoot. Other groups were assigned to the Provost Marshall for a wide range of duties. Actually, I can not remember all the jobs there were at each Nationals.

The food available at the "kitchen" on the range rivaled many McDonalds in sheer numbers of food served, BUT the food was always much, MUCH better. The fried egg and sausage sandwiches in the morning was always my favorite, but they had other food as well. The hamburgers were actually fried on large grills and they were GREAT. They had large tables of condiments including salt pickle slices and dessicated onions. The French Fries put McDonald's to shame. For many years local Fire Departments and Boy Scout Troops had a HUGE barbecue chicken supper on Saturday nights. They made enough off that one supper at each Spring and Fall National Shoot to fund them for the entire year. However, that stopped in the 90's when it got to be just too big of a chore for the groups to do it.

I'm sorry if I have bored some people with this long post, but I had some really great times at Fort Shenandoah over three decades.
Gus

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I find that unlikely. We need some legal type to jump in here. You seem to be suggesting that if someone buys an India made ml'er and it blows up he would have recourse against the importer? I doubt an attorney would even that that case.

Actually, it comes down to who has the insurance and might pay....

Good luck getting any funds out of an Italian company by using an Italian court if you blow up your Pedersoli, Armi San Marco, Pietta, etc. You're going to have to show that the independent proof house somehow screwed up the test, and the barrel shouldn't have passed.

As far as American companies go... you'd be surprised what will happen if you sue an American black powder, barrel maker. Say for the sake of dsicussion, John Q. Doe Barrels, Inc.... one bursts, and although the evidence suggest operator error, the injured sues anyway, and they file today.

On Friday, you'll be the proud owner of around 100 barrels in various states of completion... the total assets of John Q. Doe Barrels Inc. The machines, and the facility, and the land they are on are all owned by Mr. John Q. Doe, private citizen, and leased to the company that bears his name. You can't touch them. On Monday, the company folds, and on Tuesday a new company will be formed... called J. Q. Doe Barrels Inc. It will take a couple of weeks for new barrel blanks to arrive from the steel mill, but then back to business. OH it's slightly more complicated, but that's very close... Mr. Doe probably has the machines, property, and building in the name of an adult offspring of his, not part of the corporation, but simply an employee, but the results are the same, and the company is located in a State where that IS the law.

CVA has all their barrels made in Spain now... (not the best proofhouse standards there BTW). This following several instances where inlines exploded, and in several cases they were loaded within guidelines. The "parent" company owns the barrel making facility, and they own CVA located in Georgia, but I'm betting that the barrel company "sells on paper" the barrels to CVA..., so if they go BOOM again... you'll need to take your case to Spain.


greggholmes wrote:

why do people keep beating the "proof" horse

.
Since the appearance of the India origin muskets in large numbers, several folks raise this issue time and again. In rare cases it appears as some sort of divine anointing of the barrel against all accidents. YET, it was a proofed barrel and operator error that blew up that CW rifled musket and injured more than one person this year!

King of Derby Wrote:

What you are supposed to do when you have a misfire but you did have the pan flash... the shooter should half-cock the musket, prick the touch hole, feel for the powder crunching, reprime from a new cartridge (and dump the remaining contents on the ground), close the frizzen, cock the musket, and attempt to fire.

What reenactors often do, is to dump the contents of the musket barrel on the ground, fail to prick the touch hole, reprime and reload the blank, and then try to fire. Pedersoli or Indian made, no difference in this. AND... This is wrong.

People do that? Perhaps I'm just too used to my group, but I thought it would be common sense to look at pricking and re-priming first before emptying a barrel. Certainly I won't sign someone off as being able to take powder on the field until they know to do that.

It's not the newbies... it's the guys that have been doing this for many years that are combining what is done at the end of the battle to check to see if anybody is walking off with a charged flintlock, and what they should be doing to correct a flash-in-the-pan. :shake:

I think they think that they need to dump the barrel contents to keep from loading a double blank... but if they simply pricked and reprimed, then tried to fire on the next volley.. they would know. IF you're loading so quickly that you're not sure if you got enough of the powder down the barrel to make a "pop" and when you look down you can't see the pan empty and smoke coming from the touch hole (part of the drill), then you're loading TOO FAST.

Another problem is the years of handling a firearm that you've only used to fire blanks, and combined with many who have never fired a live round from any gun at any time..., and you get a situation of familiarity breeding contempt.

"I've been doing this for years; I know what I'm doing." :nono:



LD

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Took my son to the cannon matches there when he was 5 and 7. He still talks about it now and he is 32. When they had carbine matches, it was a constant roar for thirty or forty seconds and then the match was over. Hardly ever could hear an individual shot. Seemed like the firing range was 1/3 mile long.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

When it comes to guns not having the touch hole drilled, for purposes of import as a non-gun. In 1972, my CVA kentucky pistol kit came with no touch hole. Per the instructions, It was to be located and drilled after the lock and barrel were in place.


If the gun is advertised as a shooter, and a few Indian manufacturers have web sites, they advertise guns to be fired. (Hard to use a non-gun for hunting) The importers advertise guns to be sold as shooters. They intend and their implied warranty of fitness is that the gun will be fired and the import as a non-gun is not a defense to a liability suit.

 

[Alden]

Gus;
Not at all -- thanks for your narrative.

30-40,000 shooters at an NSSA nationals -- wow, I don't think I ever knew that. 28,000 members here, less than 9,000 subscribers to Muzzleloader magazine...

Maybe if the latter's newly praised publisher did in-depth investgative reporting with peer-reviewed analysis producing a cutting-edge series of objective and comprehensive articles on India-made guns without ads from any of the manufacturers or distributors...

Anyone think that'll ever happen, by anyone, in our lifetimes!?

:rotf:

 

[TNGhost]

Gus;
Not at all -- thanks for your narrative.

30-40,000 shooters at an NSSA nationals -- wow, I don't think I ever knew that. 28,000 members here, less than 9,000 subscribers to Muzzleloader magazine...

Maybe if the latter's newly praised publisher did in-depth investgative reporting with peer-reviewed analysis producing a cutting-edge series of objective and comprehensive articles on ANYTHING without ads from any of the manufacturers or distributors...

Anyone think that'll ever happen, by anyone, in our lifetimes!?


:rotf:

Fixed it for ya.

 

[JDobbs]

This isn't necessarily a reply directly to you but just in general.

With cost being a big factor now a days, I would believe given the option between a pricer musket vs. and affordable musket, a majority of people go for the affordable one. (Good decision or not is not the point here)

That being said, there are probably a larger quantity of affordable muskets in the ranks than there are the high end pieces. Especially true in reenactment scenarios where these guns are getting dropped, stacked, caked with mud, out in the rain, etc.. (I for sure wouldn't want to take my gunsafe kept $1200 musket to a reenactment)

So with that in mind and the amount of affordable muskets out there, I think the occurrence of incidents is comparable to the same amount of incidents occurring to high end muskets. They are merely more prevalent due to the popularity of the gun.

This is a theory and up for debate. I've read some very good points on both sides in this discussion.

 

[Rickey Brown]

as far as the touchhole being drilled what is the difference in drilling it and drilling when scratch building a rifle? It's still drilling it no matter when it is done. I live on a small military disability that barely pays my frugal bills. What extra I have is from my side business. My point is if not for these guns I would not have a smoothbore. I bought mine through a cooperative that got a great deal then it was looked over by a very competent rifle builder and drilled. I have shot it many times and have no trepidations about using it to hunt or re-enact. Sure it's crude and ugly but it works. I knocked the bright shine off the metal and let it rust some. Sanded down, stained and finished the stock and plan to shoot the heck out of it and don't care what anyone thinks

 

[vetarms]

Just for fun...

Here is a photo comparison of two repro 1st Model Brown Bess muskets. Both are fully functional. Both are handmade. Neither are perfect.

One retails for $2300. The other retails for $600.

 

[JDobbs]

Both are very nice looking guns, would not be embarrassed to own either of them. :thumbsup:

Another thought that I had is about modern firearms price when compared with BP guns.

Now granted this is apples and oranges but.. I can go the the local gun dealer today and walk out with a new gen glock or smith & wesson for the price range of $400-$600 dollars, sometimes less if you shop! These guns (handguns) are mechanically more sophisticated in every way. The amount of parts, quality of parts, type of ammo, etc.. These guns are in the hands of our military, law enforcement and private citizens every day. No one questions the build quality of those guns at that price range or when a malfunction occurs.

How can one say that a BP smoothbore, made of basically three main parts, need to be over the same price range to attain a safely made firearm? I highly doubt machine cast parts and wood, in the case of these affordable smoothbores, costs more to produce than a glock or S&W.

Granted there are dealers and companies in all facets of business that will copy and try to offer a less than face value product to make a dime. Such is the case in modern firearms too not just BP. However, to write off every product simply because of the Made in ______ stamp is silly.

A custom car still needs oil changes and fuel to run, otherwise you'll blow up your engine. Just as BP guns need care and maintenance to operate.

BP is confusing to some people. Most are un-educated in pouring raw powder down a barrel and throwing a projectile in there. When you make BP guns affordable for everyone, an un-educated majority begins to purchase them and go outside to "play" with their new toy. I've heard BP guns called that more than once. This lack of respect for a leathal weapon is scary! Combind that with smokeless powder, wrong size ammunition, improper cleaning, quanity of powder, rating of powder (1f, 2f, etc..).. You have all the right elements for a disaster.

Threads like this one are an amazing tool and I can only hope they help to educate people in learning the proper way to care for and choose a BP gun. No price tag will ever trump stupidity once you get one.

 

[pargent]

The price difference is in the way they are made, (lots of hand fitting ,regardless of wether there is automated machining involved the final gun needs hand fitting )

 

[pargent]

FYI the hand rail butt shaping is Not CORRECT ON EITHER GUN FOR FIRST PATTERN . Way off :nono:

 

[Loyalist Dave]

FWIW... took my first model Loyalist Arms LLP Bess musket out to the British Brigade/Continental Line event at Mt. Harmon this weekend.

Pro - the factory bayonet fit like a glove, and the musket had no misfires though more than four dozen rounds were put through it, and only one flint was used. :grin:

Con - the morning scenario was a running battle, and the freakin' thing is bloody heavy! So I'm going to have to do some old fashioned USMC "Rifle PT" to carry that thing in the future, and if I go to some F&I events next year. ZOIKERS. :shocked2:

Which is why she has been christened: The Beast.

LD

 

[Alden]

I second that on the weight but mine is as old as they get and probably has even more, heavy, wood...

 

[AZbpBurner]

This is all interesting info, whether factual or speculation, and has give4n me a more positive perspective on the India-made guns.

A few years ago I saw that appeared to be an old, authentic musket of some sort. It had 'Tower' and a crown on the lock, and, although the metal was stained and discolored, it looked to be an original to me - at least until I was able to pick it up, and look it over. The wood-to-metal fitting was poorly done, there were a lot of file marks on metal and wood, and it looked like the brass parts were fit by assembling them onto the wood, and then filing/sanding/grinding it all to shape. The price was a few hundred bucks, but it looked like low enough quality that I'd hesitate to fire it, even though it was obvious it had been fired a lot already.

More recently I saw a Bess that looked to be original, except that some of the brass looked too clean and unused. It, also was India-made. The workmanship was better, but having read about some cutlery company that sold India "originals", either with rotted wood, or newly manufactured stocks on supposedly anciently made Indian parts, I was still skeptical about shooter quality on all India-made products.

Additionally, I've seen some flintlock pistols of reasonable fit & finish that were from India, and the shooters seemed pleased with them. I don't recall seeing any ignition problems with them.

So, based on the final info I've gotten here, and after looking at some other links, I'll be ordering a fusil here in the next few weeks or months. I like .62 cal, and a shorter barrel and lighter weight than a full-length musket.

There are complaints/observations that these India-made guns aren't authentic looking. None of my Investarms rifles are 'authentic' design, either, but since I shoot for my own amusement, I'm not really too concerned.

 

[Artificer]

FYI the hand rail butt shaping is Not CORRECT ON EITHER GUN FOR FIRST PATTERN . Way off :nono:

Good eyes!

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Now granted this is apples and oranges but.. I can go the the local gun dealer today and walk out with a new gen glock or smith & wesson for the price range of $400-$600 dollars, sometimes less if you shop! These guns (handguns) are mechanically more sophisticated in every way. The amount of parts, quality of parts, type of ammo, etc.. These guns are in the hands of our military, law enforcement and private citizens every day. No one questions the build quality of those guns at that price range or when a malfunction occurs.

Well, that is not quite true in some cases. I remember back in the late 70's when there was a cheap .25 automatic pistol known as the "Raven," it sold for anywhere between $45-60.00 retail. Then there was the $ 225.00 first generation Smith and Wesson 9mm handgun. Though way less expensive and of smaller caliber, the Raven actually could be counted on to work every time, when the 1st Generation Smith pistols had LOTS of malfunctioning problems. I have loads of other stories on modern guns, but that is not the realm of this forum.

$ 400.00 - 600.00 can get you a good used (modern) gun and some new guns, but the reason they don't cost more is they are manufactured in FAR greater quantities and with a lot of machine work rather than hand work and fitting. Most people really do not want to know what the manufacturers charge the military for small arms compared to what you have to pay in the civilian world. In the mid 1980's, the cost of a brand new M16A2 was around $250.00 dollars each compared to the retail cost of the Semi Automatic version (with less parts) at around $ 800.00 retail from Colt. Of course, the military is "self insured" and the military orders firearms in quantities of 50,000 or more at a time. The higher the demand or market, the more guns can be made and made a lot cheaper.

In the 1980's when we sold Italian Cap and Ball Revolvers for $145.00 new, they were not nearly as good as the originals. I actually was introduced to Mr. Zoli at the Shot show in 1984. So I told him I KNEW they could make guns as good if not better than originals and why didn't they make them? The answer? Mr. Zoli said of course they could make guns completely authentic and BETTER quality than originals, BUT no one would buy them as they would have to retail for around $275.00 due to the limited market. A brand new Smith and Wesson Model 19 cost around $229.00 retail then. I had to agree there were very few people who would pay that much more for an authentic cap and ball high quality revolver over a Smith Model 19.

There is no where near the demand for black powder firearms as for modern firearms. If there was, the cost of high quality BP guns would be significantly less.

Gus

 

[Loyalist Dave]

RIGHT!
Why are Browning barrels no longer made in Belgium, and Browning muzzleloaders, the final Hatfield rifles, the Remington flintlock rifles are all contract rifles with the company names added ???.... manufacturing costs, and with the black powder rifles... it's also limited market share.

LD