Stock Pattern Making

[Cruzatte]

Situation: You have acquired an antique smoothbore that is just right for shooting. But you'd like to preserve it. You decide to make a copy of it. There aren't really any stocks out there that are close enough for your liking. So, you decide to use the antique for a pattern. You find a suitable piece of masonite, or thin sheet of plywood, and commence to draw around the antique, cut out the pattern on the plywood on the band saw and you think you have your pattern.

Now in sewing, there's something called a seam allowance which is the area you will stitch along. Too much seam allowance and the garment will hang on you like a bag. Not enough seam allowance, and you could end up ripping the garment at the shoulders if you're making a coat, or the crotch if you're making a pair of breeches.

Question: How much extra wood do you leave when transferring your stock pattern to that nice, (expensive) walnut plank to allow for fitting the butt plate, barrel, ramrod channel, etc? Better to cut out the new stock blank with too much wood left, than not enough. How much is enough? And did I even ask the right question regarding the pattern making procedure? I've always wondered.

 

[BrownBear]

Haven't built a muzzleloader stock from a blank, but with modern rifle stocks I always did fine rough shaping to about 1/4" in all dimensions, then really slowing down. Worked for me, but I know some talented stock makers who rough shape to smaller tolerances.

 

[Col. Batguano]

It depends on several things. Some areas that are prone to be thin (like fore ends) you might leave 3/16" to be planed or rasped away when you're approaching your finish dimensions. Other areas like the comb line you might band saw to within 1/8" of the line. Same with the belly line. but leave yourself enough wood that you can creep up on the proper drop at the comb slowly by just taking a little off at a time. Some more experienced builders will band saw within 1/16" of their final dimensions, but I'm too chicken to do that. Wood is easier to take away than to add.

The other thing to bear in mind is that wood is internally stressed when it's in a big slab. Once you start lopping hunks off of it some stress is going to be relieved, and the plank is likely to move a little bit. It could move up, down, or side to side.

Maybe the way to do it is to make a couple of cuts. The first one to within about 1/2" of your (top & bottom) stock profile, and the second one much closer to your line after the wood has had a chance to move a bit. Give it a day or two between cuts though so it has a chance to achieve equilibrium. For areas like the fore end where the metal barrel is your guide you can get a little closer. For unsupported areas where the wood itself is the supporting element (aft of the breech) give it a chance to move.

Another thing. Once your barrel is inletted keep the barrel in there when you set it down for at least a few weeks. Tape it if you haven't already lugged and pinned it. It will give the wood a chance to equalize without all that wood that once was there where the barrel now resides.

If the wood is prone to tear out (like curly maple) large gouges, spoke shaves and planes will take chunks out, so your safest / best alternative is rasps to take it down. I know it's slower, but that's the safe way to proceed.

I recently cut a blank and marked a center line for the BP based on how the inletted barrel laid. This was a 2 1/2" thick slab of curly maple, and for final dimensions I need only 1 7/8". After trimming the slabs off the fore end, and the lock panels, I let it rest a few days. The wood warped significantly. In order to achieve my 3/16" cast off I wound up moving the butt plate all the way over to the very far right edge of the blank, and even then I might not have gotten it all. So, basically, when I first marked the blank, I think I had about 1/2" of extra wood to the right of the roughly laid butt plate. When I actually cut it in, I had maybe 1/8", and that was a maybe, so that's a lot of movement.

Maybe it was wood demons, fate, or the change in humidity coming from Kentucky in the summer, to Minnesota in the winter. Who knows, but the broader point is that the wood moved considerably between the first time I marked the line, and when I was actually ready to start inlettng the butt plate a few weeks later.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
1/8" is sufficient if you know what you are doing.

dave

 

[eggwelder]

i`m with Dave

 

[BrownBear]

I suspect it depends on the accuracy of your pattern. If adjustments need to be made, particularly in tapers or transitions, 1/8" is not enough for this ham-handed wood butcher! :grin:

 

[Eric Krewson]

Your furniture pretty much dictates the final dimensions of your stock. I don't leave much extra on the comb but do leave me some extra width in the buttplate area.

I am a measure once and cut twice person so a inch of extra length in the butt saved my bacon one time when I miss-calculated where my lock sear would be.

I would have had a 12 1/2" length of pull if I had cut to my pattern right off. I got my needed 13 1/2" because I left the extra wood.

Sloppy work on my part but it was my first gun.

If you want to leave a bunch of extra wood for safety that is OK, a few minutes with a rasp and it is gone.

 

[Cruzatte]

Thanks everyone. Your responses were most informative. In the interests of full disclosure, I'm not ready to build from scratch. I just had to ask because I was most curious. Thanks again.

 

[Scota4570]

I leave the bottom of the profile a bunch of extra material. I inlet the barrel and tang into the rough slab. When I am completely happy I saw off the rest of the profile. Doing it that way gives a chance for a do over it something goes wrong. Also you get the butstock drop just right because you are actually measuring off the barrel.

 

[Vaino]

There are many ways to make a template from an existing gun....possibly one of the most accurate is shown in Buchele's "Recreating the American Longrifle". A wooden block w/ a pencil through it ....this is just a very loose description.

Have a Bucks County buttstock template that was made from an over tracing of a LR in RCA1 and then enlarged on the computer until the buttstock dim. was the same as that listed in the book.

I think that attempting a "close copy" of a LR is much more difficult than making one that just "looks" like it and those who can make a "close copy" are much more highly skilled than me and a most builders.

Because I installed ball bearing blade guides on my bandsaw, the layout lines are 3/16" from the bbl inlet and this includes the areas to the wrist. The top and bottom LO lines are also 3/16", except on the buttstock where only an 1/8" excess is made. All sawing is on the line......Fred

 

[BrownBear]

I think that attempting a "close copy" of a LR is much more difficult than making one that just "looks" like it and those who can make a "close copy" are much more highly skilled than me and a most builders.

Only know enough to be dangerous to myself and others, but recent experience amplifies your point. I had a participating smith build me a Leman Squirrel Rifle through GRRW Collectors Association (I'll pick it up Friday! :applause: ). When pulling together the pieces the smith highly recommended a precarve (Pecatonica), barrel channel inletted but not the lock.

He said if I had a blank of my own that I really wanted used, he'd inspect it first before agreeing to do it, then charge me actual labor to turn the blank into an accurate Leman stock. His estimate of time and effort involved (and cost!) kinda curled my eyebrows up into my greatly receding hairline. I followed his advice, but didn't save a nickel. I put the difference into a much-upgraded piece of maple, and couldn't be happier.

 

[PaulN/KS]

Are you planning on using walnut for the stock or would maple do.
Reason I'm asking is I have some maple that might work for a stock. Give me a holler or maybe I'll see ya at the shoot Sunday.

 

[rich pierce]

Agree 100% with Eric that any blueprint must be based on the parts that will be used. I also prefer to just cut the top line first so I can really wale on it while hand inletting a barrel. I want zero flex. Then work position of all other things from the barrel.

 

[Cruzatte]

Are you planning on using walnut for the stock or would maple do.
Reason I'm asking is I have some maple that might work for a stock. Give me a holler or maybe I'll see ya at the shoot Sunday.

I'm not ready to build, yet. I was more curious than anything. Back story is I've been looking at a lot of photos of 18th century French fusils. Ever noticed how the butt stock profiles changed over the decades during the French regime in Canada? So I saw two that I really liked, one style dated to 1716, the other to 1721. They were slim, graceful looking examples. Not the clubby things one finds toward the middle of the century. In fact, they nearly resemble TOW's fusil de chasse de Tulle.

I found two fusil or smoothbore stocks at Knob Mountain Muzzleloading that are so close I'd have to see them in person. I'm about half tempted to bite anyway. I'd really be interested if either of them were available in walnut. Cherry would be a second choice. There's a Thiolliere fusil in Gladysz's book (pp. 112-115) that is stocked in black walnut. May be a restocked item, who knows? Another gun on pp. 100-101 is a fusil a l'ancre stocked in a fruit wood, possibly cherry.

In The Fusil de Tulle in New France1691-1741 by Russel Bouchard, most if not all the examples photographed are stocked in walnut.

So I'd really like to stay away from maple if I can.

Thanks for the offer, though. I'm a long ways from starting the project. All I have right now are the brass thimbles which are sitting in a cigar box on my work bench.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
I urge you to draw up accurate plans before cutting anything to make sure everything will fit the way you want. I have no idea how many who post to this forum skip drawings but there sure are a lot of folks who end up with problems such as the triggers don't fit, the lock bolt blocks the ramrod, the forestock looks really bulky, etc., etc. All of those problems could be avoided by making drawings.

dave

 

[Col. Batguano]

What Dave said. One of the more important elements to research is how thick to make the web between the barrel channel and the RR hole.

As far as what Dave Keck does, he will inlet your wood you furnish him for you if you want. So if you want to get him a $1000 English walnut blank he'll inlet it for you.

Just be aware that his model stocks do NOT have any cast off to them if you're going the pre-carve route with him. There will be a little extra wood for you to do that with, but not a lot. Same with toe in and toe out.

A safer way to proceed might be to ask him to do a tracing for you of the general profile from his models. That would let you play around a little bit with the drop at the comb so that it fits YOU the way you want it to.

 

[Vaino]

I've never made detailed dwgs of a LR made from a blank, but do use a template for the butt stocks for the Bucks County LRs. For the Lancasters, the butt stock shape is hand drawn seeing it's an easier design.

Where I do draw on paper is for the carving designs because they give me fits. I wish I had artistic talent and could draw designs like my friend Tim Adlam who does my engraving. What takes him 1-2 hrs to design takes me 2 days......Fred

 

[BrownBear]

Where I do draw on paper is for the carving designs because they give me fits. I wish I had artistic talent and could draw designs like my friend Tim Adlam who does my engraving. What takes him 1-2 hrs to design takes me 2 days......Fred

Makes sense to me. The smith I had build my Leman has rubbings of engravings on original Lemans he's owned over the years. That's what he used for mine, and the results speak for themselves.

 

[PaulN/KS]

I saw where TOW has an original antique French fusil that's been converted to cap lock. The description says that it has a walnut stock. It makes sense now that you wouldn't want maple on a French gun. :hmm:

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Some French guns rebuilt in Canada were stocked with yellow birch. I suspect there were some done in maple as well. What does not make much sense is American black walnut because it would have been very rare as far north as Canada in the 18th century. They may have shipped some black walnut from French possessions along the Mississippi but unlikely they cut much in Canada. The original walnut used on French guns is overwhelmingly European (also called English) walnut.

dave