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stage coach shotgun
- Thread starter passgas55
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One reference I have states 13 inches, others are longer...
In the picture above, the barrel length is 20", like that of the shotguns carried by stagecoach guards in the Old West.
Check with your state's laws reguarding shotgun's barrel length, a stagecoach gun may be concidered a sawed-off shotgun, even if it's factory made that way back in the 1850-70's...
In the picture above, the barrel length is 20", like that of the shotguns carried by stagecoach guards in the Old West.
Check with your state's laws reguarding shotgun's barrel length, a stagecoach gun may be concidered a sawed-off shotgun, even if it's factory made that way back in the 1850-70's...
I've found a couple listed as "coach guns" at auction, but none mention the barrel length. Most reproductions seem to be 20" (but that could be to get legal as Musketman notes).
To be able to load a shotgun while sitting in a jostling coach I came up with 18" as a good length that allows me to stuff a ramrod without needing to reposition my handgrip. Very scientific experiment just now with a breechloading double and a yardstick.
Blunderbusses (blunderbii?) seem to occur at 15 to 18" barrel lengths.
To be able to load a shotgun while sitting in a jostling coach I came up with 18" as a good length that allows me to stuff a ramrod without needing to reposition my handgrip. Very scientific experiment just now with a breechloading double and a yardstick.
Blunderbusses (blunderbii?) seem to occur at 15 to 18" barrel lengths.
I am not going to do anything that is against the law.
(1) I am waiting on a letter from the ATF concerning muzzle loading shotguns.
(2) I have a current copy of my state laws and what I read it should be okay. I am making a call to the state police and a letter to the state attorney to see if it is legal and if not to please give regulation numbers so I can look them up.
In law matters I always request written letters to cover my rear end.It is a good idea to keep a copy of letters with you when using any weapon that the average LEO may not be familar with. I do own class 3 which you must have proof of all the time.I was surprize at how many LEOs think it is against the law to own certain class 3 weapons.
I hope to have all my answers within a month. I will let you know how it comes out.I did come across a site that was selling new short barreled muzzle loading stage coach shotguns that were consider collectors grade $2500 ouch!
I may contact them to see what they say just for info, don't take the word of a salesman for law though.
(1) I am waiting on a letter from the ATF concerning muzzle loading shotguns.
(2) I have a current copy of my state laws and what I read it should be okay. I am making a call to the state police and a letter to the state attorney to see if it is legal and if not to please give regulation numbers so I can look them up.
In law matters I always request written letters to cover my rear end.It is a good idea to keep a copy of letters with you when using any weapon that the average LEO may not be familar with. I do own class 3 which you must have proof of all the time.I was surprize at how many LEOs think it is against the law to own certain class 3 weapons.
I hope to have all my answers within a month. I will let you know how it comes out.I did come across a site that was selling new short barreled muzzle loading stage coach shotguns that were consider collectors grade $2500 ouch!
I may contact them to see what they say just for info, don't take the word of a salesman for law though.
Stumpkiller, good idea on sitting in the position like on a stage coach and measuring the lenght that will work for you.
the key for this project to work is that it is a muzzle loading shotgun using loose blackpowder.I know you can buy smooth bore double barrrel muzzle loading pistols. whats bad with me is that once I get an idea I won't stop .
the key for this project to work is that it is a muzzle loading shotgun using loose blackpowder.I know you can buy smooth bore double barrrel muzzle loading pistols. whats bad with me is that once I get an idea I won't stop .
I thought the minimum Federal length was 18 inches for rifles and shotguns. This is the total barrel length which, with a cartridge gun, (egads!) includes the chamber.
As for the old originals, if they were MADE with barrels shorter than 18 inches BY THE FACTORY prior to 1899 (or 1898, I forget) they fall under the collectors antique area of the law and are outside the jurisdiction of the Federal requirements.
If I were making a recreation of a muzzleloading double barrel shotgun for stagecoach protection I would use 18 3/4 inches just to be on the safe side. I would also remove any and all traces of it's being sawed off by filing, sanding and reblueing or rebrowning its muzzle.
As for the old originals, if they were MADE with barrels shorter than 18 inches BY THE FACTORY prior to 1899 (or 1898, I forget) they fall under the collectors antique area of the law and are outside the jurisdiction of the Federal requirements.
If I were making a recreation of a muzzleloading double barrel shotgun for stagecoach protection I would use 18 3/4 inches just to be on the safe side. I would also remove any and all traces of it's being sawed off by filing, sanding and reblueing or rebrowning its muzzle.
Depending on what the law says will determine my barrel lenght.The hardest part is finding a shotgun that is not a collectors item . I am waiting on a used Navy arms double shotgun that may fit my plans. If it is too nice of a shotgun,I will leave it as and add it to my single barrel muzzle loading shotgun that I use for rabbit hunting.
http://www.ahfrichmond.com/projectgraphics/814stage.ahf
that is the web site for the ad for a muzzle loader with a 13" barrel and stubbie stock.I just called them and am waiting on a return call.My email to the state police was answered but they would not comment on if it was legal or not.Said they do not give legal advice on the law.Gave me the R.S. number which I was reading before.There was a part in the reg that said "excluding blackpowder weapons" but it was in the middle of the R.S. mixed in with other mumbo jumbo.I am having a lawyer that I know who does know a little about guns to read it.I will go to my local district attorney for his read on it too.I do not want to work in a grey area. Whats wrong with a simple yes or no answer.I am still waiting on an answer from the feds.What is the diffrence between a smooth bore,sxs, muzzle loading pistol and a muzzle loadind sxs shotgun? Well if after a year if I do not get anwsers in black and white,I will get a smooth bore sxs pistol or keep shotgun at 18.5" barrel and no less than 26" overall.Better yet I do both. ::But I can wait.
that is the web site for the ad for a muzzle loader with a 13" barrel and stubbie stock.I just called them and am waiting on a return call.My email to the state police was answered but they would not comment on if it was legal or not.Said they do not give legal advice on the law.Gave me the R.S. number which I was reading before.There was a part in the reg that said "excluding blackpowder weapons" but it was in the middle of the R.S. mixed in with other mumbo jumbo.I am having a lawyer that I know who does know a little about guns to read it.I will go to my local district attorney for his read on it too.I do not want to work in a grey area. Whats wrong with a simple yes or no answer.I am still waiting on an answer from the feds.What is the diffrence between a smooth bore,sxs, muzzle loading pistol and a muzzle loadind sxs shotgun? Well if after a year if I do not get anwsers in black and white,I will get a smooth bore sxs pistol or keep shotgun at 18.5" barrel and no less than 26" overall.Better yet I do both. ::But I can wait.
Oh man the ideas are flowing out my head.That is dangerous.Every thing hindges on if the federal gov. says that muzzle loading(not breech)falls under NFA. If it does , I am not doing the project to pay a $200 tax stamp. If it does not fall under NFA,then I will go ahead with the[url] project.In[/url] the State of LA it is not against the law to own a short barrel shotgun as long as it is legally registered with them.This is free and they do give you paper work for it.I know this for a fact since I have a NFA item register with them.This is the reg I was reading concerning weapons that has to be register with the State of LA. I may have to get serial numbers .Wheres' my internet lawyers.I wonder if the cowboys had to go thru all this mumbo jumbo.
(3) "Firearm" means a shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length; a rifle having a barrel of less than sixteen inches in length; any weapon made from either a rifle or a shotgun if said weapon has been modified to have an overall length of less than twenty-six inches; any other firearm, pistol, revolver, or shotgun from which the serial number or mark of identification has been obliterated, from which a shot is discharged by an explosive, if that weapon is capable of being concealed on the person; or a machine gun, grenade launcher, flame thrower, bazooka, rocket launcher, excluding black powder weapons, or gas grenade; and includes a muffler or silencer for any firearm, whether or not the firearm is included within this definition. Pistols and revolvers and those rifles and shotguns which have not previously been defined in this Paragraph as firearms from which serial numbers or marks of identification have not been obliterated are specifically exempt from this definition
(3) "Firearm" means a shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length; a rifle having a barrel of less than sixteen inches in length; any weapon made from either a rifle or a shotgun if said weapon has been modified to have an overall length of less than twenty-six inches; any other firearm, pistol, revolver, or shotgun from which the serial number or mark of identification has been obliterated, from which a shot is discharged by an explosive, if that weapon is capable of being concealed on the person; or a machine gun, grenade launcher, flame thrower, bazooka, rocket launcher, excluding black powder weapons, or gas grenade; and includes a muffler or silencer for any firearm, whether or not the firearm is included within this definition. Pistols and revolvers and those rifles and shotguns which have not previously been defined in this Paragraph as firearms from which serial numbers or marks of identification have not been obliterated are specifically exempt from this definition
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Okay, I started to read some of the fed regs.The definition part tells me alot of info.Read definition of an Antique and to my rose color glasses that should cover our modern made old stle muzzle loaders(Replica made before or after year 1898)Also note that in "Firearms" definition it exempts Antiques.Of course they use some catch all phrases that still can nail you such as the Director to determine or explosive energy.Another key word is "fixed shell" which I guess means like a shotgun shell? Here is a link to the ATF reg . I did not read the whole thing yet so I may be surprized a time or two.Now I am still waiting on a written response before I do anything.
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/05dec20031700/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2003/aprqtr/pdf/27cfr479.11.pdf
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/05dec20031700/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2003/aprqtr/pdf/27cfr479.11.pdf
I received my shotgun today.It is in great shape in fact I am having a hard time thinking about modifying this one.I think I will keep this one as is and take my time to find one in a little rougher shape.I hope to take it to the camp in 2 weeks and see how she patterns.I want this for hunting.If she does not pattern good and I can't find another shotgun by the end of June in my price range, out comes the hack saw.
I finnally recieved a reply from the state of La and muzzle loaders do not have to follow the same rules as a fixed shell type of gun.So it is a go with the state as far as having 13" barrels.Now all I have to have in writing is a reply from the federal gov. which in reading their regs it should be no problem.Half way there. 
I did get a written reply from the ATF. What I want to do does not fall under the NFA.So now it is a go.I made up a book with the fed and LA state laws in it with copies of my replies from them to carry when I have the shotgun with me. eace: not peace but victory
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