Specs on Simon Kentons Rifle

[bowbender68]

I have been trying to research the specs of the rifle that Simon Kenton carried in his travels in the Ohio/Kentucky frontier. From what I have read, all I can find that references it is "long, octagon barrel of large caliber, with a walnut stock" Can anyone help me fill in the gaps, or correct what info I have if it is inaccurate. I wonder if any photos exist, or if an origonal is in a museum somewhere?? Thanks for any help!

 

[ed zeransky]

according to allen eckart simon was given a gun as a gift from a man named jacob butler in june of 1771. it was "a fine pennsylvaina flintlock with a forty inch octagonal barrel nestled in a forepiece of beautiful curley maple, and the stock was decorated with a eight point star and crescent moon in brass.the butt plate,trigger guard and patch box were also of brass and the workmanship of the lock assembly was of the finest".simon named this gun "jacob". if i remember right, simon lost this rifle somewhere along the ohio river when attacked by shawnee while exploring with a man named yeager, and someone else whose name escapes me. as simon fell into indian hands on at least one other occasion, im sure he had several different guns during his time on the frontier.

 

[flaming canvas]

That's pretty much the size of it. I'm in the middle of the book right now.

 

Please remember that Echert's works are fiction!

Some basis in history, but intended as entertainment, not use as documentation.

:nono: :nono:

 

[flaming canvas]

Please remember that Echert's works are fiction!

Some basis in history, but intended as entertainment, not use as documentation.

:nono: :nono:

"This book is fact, not fiction."

First line of the author's note. It also says later that all the dates are accurate and the characters were as represented.

No reference is given as to documentation of the rifle,called Jacob, but it is said to have been made by Henry Lehman. I guess we'll have to put that one down as a maybe.

 

[ed zeransky]

Please remember that Echert's works are fiction!

Some basis in history, but intended as entertainment, not use as documentation.

:nono: :nono:

i would say eckerts work has more than some basis in fact. i know there were mistakes made in "the frontiersman" and he tried to correct some of them in his later works. and "that dark and bloody river" had some holes poked in it by william hintzen's "border wars of the upper ohio valley" (which i highly recomend).but to call his work fiction would be incorrect. :imo:

 

[Turner1776]

Eckert has a web site selling his drafts of books and such. Look it up and email him. Know he is big with the BLUEJACKET outdoor drama in Xenia Ohio but don't know if he lives in Ohio still. JIM

 

[Okwaho]

Whether Henry Leman built Simon Kenton's rifle,Jacob, isn't a "maybe".It's a "no way".
Simon Kenton,B.3,April,1755;D.29,April,1836
Henry Eicholtz Leman,B.3,March,1812;D.5,May,1887

Henry E.Leman, born 1812 in Lancaster,Pa.and reportedly apprenticed to Melchoir Fordney, moved to Philadelphia in 1831 to work for the Tryon Company. He returned to Lancaster in 1834 and went into the business of making guns until his death in 1887.His earliest guns were made after 1834,two years before Simon Kenton died at the age of 81 in Urbana,Ohio
Tom Patton :m2c:

 

[flaming canvas]

Whether Henry Leman built Simon Kenton's rifle,Jacob, isn't a "maybe".It's a "no way".
Simon Kenton,B.3,April,1755;D.29,April,1836
Henry Eicholtz Leman,B.3,March,1812;D.5,May,1887

Henry E.Leman, born 1812 in Lancaster,Pa.and reportedly apprenticed to Melchoir Fordney, moved to Philadelphia in 1831 to work for the Tryon Company. He returned to Lancaster in 1834 and went into the business of making guns until his death in 1887.His earliest guns were made after 1834,two years before Simon Kenton died at the age of 81 in Urbana,Ohio
Tom Patton :m2c:

Kind of hard to argue with the facts, but then, I'm not a liberal. :crackup: :crackup: :crackup:


I'm going to have to do some more reading about this time period. Turns out that my wife is descended from John Bowman.

 

[Huntinfool]

Hey Fellows,

I've been in contact with Mr. Eckert for several years. The last time I contacted him (last fall) he requested that I not post his new address as he was very ill and didn't have the strength to answer a bunch of e-mails. His wit was just as sharp as ever but I suspect the way he talked he might not be around much longer.

He told me that he researched "The Frontiersmen" series for more than 20 years most of it was based on military documents letters and such. There are small parts that he filled in the way he assumed the person would have talked or acted to fill in where the documentation was lacking. This made it much more interesting for the average reader to understand.

One interesting fact he told me was that "The Frontiersmen" was so big the publisher demanded that he cut it down. He had a stack of documentaion and "fill". (Lets face it noone knows exactly what transpired between all the principle characters in all of their conversations.)

He had this stack of paper lying around for over twenty five years and he said to himself, "I need to do something with all that." He did he put it together and titled it "That Dark And Bloody River".

That's right "That Dark And Bloody River" is left over material from "The Frontiersmen" that publishers wouldn't allow because it was too much for one book.

Anyhow I told him I wouldn't give out his new address the one on his website is not correct the last time I tried it.

I for one am very sorry that he's in bad health. His books are largely responsible for my interest in living history and flintlock rifles.

It was just 3 years ago that he signed all of my books! I've got pictures of him and his wife with my wife watching him sign all of my books he was very gracious in signing even all of my paperbacks as well as my hard backs!

According to Mr. Eckert all of the books are based on facts but of course not every word is fact. There is a lot of fiction added in the form of conversation as related to the facts he uncovered. I feel he has gotten a bad rap from the so-called experts. The fact is no one knows it all about that time period! That's why his works are called Narratives.

Chuck

 

If you wish to see a university history professor chuckle under his breath as he reaches for his red pen then try presenting Eckerts works as documentation for presented work.

An english prof may accept it, but not a history department.

If the work was footnoted and documented it would probably be accepted as "history with flaws".

Works of history must cite their primary and secondary sources so that the research can be duplicated and proven by anyone. This is the diference between Undaunted Courage and The Frontiersmen. Ambrose sited his sources.

Any work without cited documentation can only be accepted as fiction, no matter what is written in the preface, or what claims the author makes. "Because I said so" may work for instructions from Mama, but it isn't documentation. Having the documentation "back at the house" will not cut it with any professor I have submitted work too.

Mr. Eckert is a fine writer and I enjoy his work as much as anyone. It sparks interest. Then the student begins real study.

:imo:

 

[ed zeransky]

cant say as i have much use for university professers anyway....but i am sad to hear mr. eckert is in failing health. i was hoping he would write a book on simon girty.no matter how people nit pick about his minor mistakes, mr. eckert has definitly influenced tons of folks.i wish him well.

 

[Huntinfool]

I thought that's what he did with all of the little footnotes all through his book some of them were just to explain stuff some were to list sources of all his reference materials and letters of documentation as well as military archived letters.

As I read it I kept book marks in the text as well as the footnote section as I came to a footnote I stopped and read the source notes also. As I said some of it is fiction but all of it is based on facts. When you have two or three documented sources all saying different things about the same incident you must make a decision which was the truth and which was a bold face lie and in some case no one knows the truth!

I venture to say it's been my experience Mr. Eckert knows more about that time period than any 10 people I've seen on these forums.

Chuck

 

[flaming canvas]

Works of history must cite their primary and secondary sources so that the research can be duplicated and proven by anyone. This is the diference between Undaunted Courage and The Frontiersmen. Ambrose sited his sources.


:imo:

Yeah. Just ask Belisle about that one.

 

Mr Eckert writes fine historical novels backed up by extensive research, but the question was about Kenton's rifle, and here, Mr Eckerts research was flawed--because his sources were flawed. Back when Eckert wrote The Frontiersman alot of misinformation was around concerning the history of the longrifle. Other authors have also been guilty of using incorrect references for this. As has been pointed out, Leman was much later than Kenton. I recognized this when I first read the book and then looked up Leman. It sort of ruined the book for me as I then mistrusted the rest of it! But that is my problem. Kenton and Boone and other long-lived frontiersmen had many rifles over the course of their lives. Boone had at least three stolen from him by Indians. Rifles owned late in life would have different styles/specs than the early ones because of the great time span of these men's lives. [Boone's first rifle was in the 1740s and he lived until 1820.] Cline and Dillin picture a rifle said to be one of Kenton's. It is very plain and looks to be from the later part of his life. I read somewhere that he also had a double barrel rifle made. There are at least 5 rifles claimed to be "Boone's" and like one biographer said, for a poor man Boone seemed to have owned a lot of stuff if you believe all the claims....

 

[Huntinfool]

Yes you are correct there has been a lot of historical finds since the 60's.

We have at least one of Boone's guns here in WV in our museum.

And reportedly one of Kenton's. A friend of mine named Van Bibber claims his family is supposed to be D.Boone's wife descendants.

His grandfather donated a D. Boone rifle to the museum here in WV.
They still have a couple locked away it's reported that later on in his life he owned several guns not much different than some of us today we may be poor but we always seem to be able to scrape up enough for a few firearms! :crackup:

It's reported that over the years counting all the ones lost or stolen D. Boone owned dozens of guns. I don't find that hard to believe because I'm 51 and if you count all the firearms that I have bought and sold and traded off it would number above 75 I'm sure and I am by no means wealthy!

Chuck

 

[loophole]

Mike, I've been curious for some time about the Kenton rifle pictured in Dillon's book. I've posted these questions on other forums, but noone seems to have answers: Does anyone know where the rifle was when Dillon pictured it in his book? Anyone know where it is today? Anyone know on what basis Dillon attributed it to Kenton?

 

:: Sorry, don't have those answers. I'll check my Walter Cline, who also shows it if my memory serves....and at 60 it doesn't always! There are reasons to question alot of attributed stuff because it lacks good documentation. I simply don't know about the Kenton rifle pictured. Most guns pictured in the various books about old guns are in large private collections or in museums. Early collectors were often duped in buying guns once owned by "famous characters" and in gun "dates"--Dillon was mislead by erroneous dates on many of the rifles he shows. Typically it is just word of mouth family history--which is often wrong! How many times have you seen some old clunker 1850s rifle brought out and proclaimed that ggggrandfather Jones used in in the Revolution? Alot of family history is family myth.

 

[Keith]

"Works of history must cite their primary and secondary sources so that the research can be duplicated and proven by anyone. This is the diference between Undaunted Courage and The Frontiersmen. Ambrose sited his sources."

I understand your point and agree that Eckert is not a good source for a college level history course, not one you want to pass anyway. His works are very enjoyable. I think they are excellent ways for people to get into history in a readable interesting format and get some knowledge from it. For those of us more into history he shouldn't be taken for gospel. Check out what he writes.
However, Stephen Ambrose was a better writer and salesman than a historian. He got things wrong too. I've read quite a lot of his World War II books, another era of interest to me, and I have found some relatively elementary mistakes. :m2c:

I am sorry to hear Allen Eckert is in poor health. I don't recall his age, but he must be very advanced in years. I wasn't sure until reading this he was still alive to tell the truth.

 

well, I checked and neither Dillin nor Cline referenced the source for ther Kenton rifle (same one in both books)...as I understand it, Cline had an excuse as he died before it was published and his wife got it in print as a memorial to him. Walter Cline was one of the original NMLRA men and very knowledgeable student of the ML gun....his book is still a great read if you can find one (got mine in a used book shop cheap). He once owned the rifle that was used in the Gary Cooper movie about Alvin York. He was a shooter and tested many of the stories about ML prowess. He wrote that his studies indicated that ML were most accurate when the load equaled around 1400 fps (round balls)....this is a light load for most of us....