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Powder Type for Patriot

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creino

32 Cal.
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Folks:

Is triple F (FFFG) powder mandatory for a Patriot Pistol? Although I believe it is recommended by manufacturers for all pistols, my inclination is that a 45 cal Patriot could handle FFG since other than the barrel length it is pretty much identical to a Seneca or Cherokee in 45 in terms of nipple and geometry.

I'm just curious cause it seems that it would be plausible. Am I missing something here?
 
I'm not an authority on the (TC) Patriot pistol, but I don't think it's "mandatory" to use fffg in this pistol, although it might be recommended. FFg would produce slightly less pressure and velocity per volume and since the granulation is larger, it may not settle in the breech as well and ignite quite as reliably. But it may work just fine otherwise.
A person can always go down in granulation (from ffg to fffg) and adjust their charge accordingly (10% less) no matter what the caliber. Many people do this to increase overall ignition and performance.
Are you aware that there is also a Patriot pistol made by Ardessa? :grin:
 
I think we are on the same page on this. I'm going to breech it with the tech reps at T/C. I was not aware of the Ardesa Patriot actually. Looks pretty nice. Any idea if the barrels are interchangeable w/ the T/C? It would be nice to get an accessory flint barrel. Imported by Traditions?
 
The reason FFFg powder is recommended for pistols is the short barrels. You need a quick burning powder to get the velocity you need for accuracy out of these relatively short barrels. Remember that they are progressive burning powders, and need some barrel length for complete burning or the powder ends up on the ground under the muzzle, and puts on a very nice display of burning powder out the muzzle. If you are shooting a smoothbore pistol, if often helps complete ignition if you put a cushion wad between the powder and PRB. The added mass slows the movement of the ball down the barrel, giving the powder time to completely burn.
Use a chronograph to find your way, here.
 
I have a Lyman Plains Pistol, seem to have the same type barrel, and I have no problems with my cap pistol igniting 2f Goex BP. I get much better result using 3f in my pistol.
 
Paul thank-you for the explanantion and the excuse to go shopping for a chronograph. Any make/model guidance?
 
Ardesa is spelled with only 1 "s".
I found it here:
[url] http://www.ardesa.com/avancarga/eng/pop_patriot.htm[/url]

I don't know how its spec.'s compare to the TC Patriot though.
If I had to guess, I don't think that Traditions actually imports any of the Ardesa brand guns.
 
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Just took a look at the Ardesa Patriot. For starters it doesn't have true target sights like the TC Patriot. Also the trigger works in both conventional and set modes while the TC Patriot trigger works only in set mode.
 
The sights on the Ardesa and the TC are totally different. The TC has full blown target sights. The front sight is a black Patridge with a glint shield as opposed to the Ardesa's simple brass bale. The TC's rear sight ia a square notch with full adjustments for windage and elevation, the Ardesa has a rather crude sight with an adjustment only for elevation. For windage, you loosen the entire sight and move it in its dove tail. No way to calibrate either setting. The same sights as on the Traditions Trapper. In fact, the whole pistol looks to me like a Traditions Trapper.
 
I've never seen beech utilzed for a stock, it looks kinda cool, but I question whether it would stand up as well as the Walnut of a T/C. As it is, who hasn't seen a Patriot lately with the wood cracked from loading? Chronic problem.
 
Beech has been in use as a stock wood for centuries. Very stable, not prone to cracking, takes AF stain real well, but it has no figure, so has been more of a 'utility' stock wood, often used in military arms and cheaper civilian arms. Heavier than walnut, by the way.
 
paulvallandigham said:
Remember that they are progressive burning powders, and need some barrel length for complete burning or the powder ends up on the ground under the muzzle, and puts on a very nice display of burning powder out the muzzle.
First I've ever heard of "progressive burning" black powder. I'd always thought it was classified as a low velocity explosive.
 
I use 25gr FFFg Goex, .445" rb, and .018" ticking patch in my TC patriot. Its a tack driver.
 
Coyote Joe: Black powder produces a bell shape pressure curve, beginning slow, and rising quickly but over some time to the peak, and then dropping off slowly as the ball moves down the barrel. Hence the term, " Bell Curve". In contrast, smokeless powder detonates, with the initial explosion sending pressure to the highest point, like the rise of an agena rocket. Then, the pressure drops as the bullet moves forward. The result looks like the shape of a ski jump, instead of a bell.

Light black powder trailed on the ground, and you will see it burn "progressively" as if it were a fuse. Now, closed actions, such as Black Powder cartridges, and many percussion actions attempt to shorten the slow rise of pressure,( and succeed) by using very hot caps or primers, to blast a flame through the center of the powder charge, thereby igniting powder in the barrel or casing from the center out, the length of the chamber from the plug, to the base of the bullet. The only problem with this is that those hot primers are also moving the ball or bullet forward before the powder is able to reach its peak, changing the dimensions of the chamber with each shot, and giving wider SDV, and poorer accuracy down range.

There is a move in the Black Powder Cartridge arena to use large pistol primers to ignite the powder so the primer does not move the bullet too soon. In effect, the shooters are finding that the modern caps and primers are TOO HOT for accurate long range target shooting.

Now, will you notice the difference shooting off-hand at 35 or 50 yds? No, I seriously doubt it. Hunters will generally not have to be concerned about this, and can shoot all the " Magnum" primers and caps their hearts desire. But the BP accuracy boys are looking for more, and are doing a lot of work to get it.

I am recommending to people that they consider using standard caps, or use an over powder wad, and then some kind of filler, or cushion wad, to absord the initial pressure from primer, while the main pressure builds in the chamber behind the PRB or bullet, which then will overcome the inertia of the projectile and send it out of the barrel with better consistency. Let a coarse filler, like corn meal, take any compression caused by a hot cap or primer, so that the bullet does not move until the main pressure pushes the entire load down the barrel. The second benefit of using the wads and fillers is that you protect the base of the bullet from being melted by that hot primer or cap.

Paul
 
I haven't run into anybody using FF in a pistol.
I use 15 grains FFF in my patriot.

IMG_0040_3.jpg
 

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