Pedersoli Indian Musket?

Discussion in 'Smoothbore' started by Smokey Plainsman, Oct 11, 2019.

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  1. Oct 20, 2019 #21

    Rat

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    Neither does my Bess have a patent breech. Good working lock, I did increase the mainspring a bit. I also made the pan "deeper", which in effect raised the touch hole. Then I coned the touch hole. It's very reliable, as it should be, with that big musket lock, big flints, big frizzen, etc. !!!

    By the way, I don't think barrel length, within reason, has any effect on patterns/range. ??? But I'm not positive about that.
     
  2. Oct 20, 2019 #22

    Daryl Crawford

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    While I'm not an expert on the subject, there is a lot of evidence that barrel length has an effect on velocity. Too short of a barrel reduces velocity. Obviously there is a point of diminishing returns on barrel length, but other things being equal, higher velocity can help with repeated pattern accuracy.
     
  3. Oct 20, 2019 #23

    Loyalist Dave

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  4. Oct 20, 2019 #24

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    Yes barrel length has a big effect on velocity. I do know that shot does not like to be driven too fast, but I forget what the velocity (generally speaking) is for shot. I think, too much velocity and the pattern deteriorates, too little and the pellets/shot won't have enough "killing power".

    I do think that the long barrels on fowlers, and rifles too, was too obtain a target or desired velocity, with less powder. Let's say we want 1100fps, a 30" barrel is going to require more powder to reach that, than a 40" barrel.

    However, I think that an ounce of shot, coming out of a cylinder bore muzzle, will pattern the same out of a 30", or 40" barrel, as long as the velocity is the same. ?? Did that make sense?

    Or at least, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Or not. :)
     
  5. Oct 20, 2019 #25

    Britsmoothy

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    The Indian is petite compared to the war horses. My Bess is the carbine version, that's heavy enough for a days hunting!
     
  6. Oct 20, 2019 #26

    Zonie

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    For what it's worth, Henry Nock, the inventor of the "Patent Breech" was born in 1741. His Patent breech was patented in 1787.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=InYSAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA118&lpg=PA118&dq=when+was+nock's+patent+breech+invented&source=bl&ots=A1PRMdhvb_&sig=ACfU3U3zyL_Z9j4eAwNqK-2vA9cXLVoUtg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjskf-pr6vlAhUxNH0KHa5QARQQ6AEwBnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=when was nock's patent breech invented&f=false

    That means a patent breech didn't exist during the design and development of the Brown Bess so there is no reason for a reproduction of that gun to have it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2019
  7. Oct 20, 2019 #27

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    I believe my Bess carbine weighs 8.25 pounds. Were some reproduction muskets fitted with a patent breech? Seems that would be unusual. ??
     
  8. Oct 22, 2019 #28

    Loyalist Dave

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    It's not the velocity of the shot that counts when it comes to patterns..., it's torque.

    IF the shot not only moves toward the muzzle, but if it shifts in a circular motion inside the barrel as it approaches the muzzle... THAT is what blows patterns. The higher velocity when the torque happens, the quicker the dispersal of the shot, thus giving you the famous "donut" pattern, AND why ultra turkey screw-in-chokes for 3.5" magnum modern shotguns often have grooves... to prevent any torque....

    The old school answer for most folks was to find just enough velocity to have the shot kill at the proper distance, and no more than that in case torque was caused. The other answer was finding out that a grooved barrel fired shot quite well.

    The longer barrels are an aid to steady the swing of the gun when firing at flying waterfowl...especially with a flint ignition. Shorter barrels are for faster maneuvering upland birds. This continued into modern breech loading shotguns.

    LD
     
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  9. Oct 22, 2019 #29

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    Wow, never heard of the torque factor before. I know about torque vs. horsepower in engines, but not shotguns. Very interesting.

    I do know that longer barrels give a better "swing', but it didn't cross my mind. Anyhow, interesting info, my brain must chew on that a while. :)
     
  10. Oct 22, 2019 #30

    Zonie

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    I think when Loyalist Dave mentioned "torque factor" he was talking about the effect of shooting shot thru a rifled barrel.

    IMO, there is no "torque factor" when the gun being shot is a smoothbore. Without rifling in the bore, there is nothing to cause the column of shot to rotate.
     
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  11. Oct 23, 2019 #31

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    Now I am confused, re-reading Loyal's post, seems he is talking about shot in a smooth bore. ??

    I agree, if the shot could rotate, seems like we could get our balls (!!!) to rotate, in a smoothbore, and obtain rifle like accuracy.

    Okay Dave, clarify.
     
  12. Oct 23, 2019 #32

    Britsmoothy

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    Any rotational action in a barrel of a shot gun is minimal and sorry Dave does not cause blown patterns. Huge volumes of gas cause blown patterns.

    It has been shown that occasionally wads can develope a rotation, especially plastic wads hence some chokes have straight rifling to halt it. It's to aid consistency of the pattern and not to prevent " blown" patterns.
     
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  13. Nov 14, 2019 #33

    JoeU

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    I have two, long story short early this year I came into possession of a lot of flintlock supplies and it was the sign from above and push needed to buy a pedersoli .20 gauge Indian trade gun with a 36” barrel. About a week later at the local gun show I found the same gun but with a 26” barrel and price was to good to pass up. Do to the ease of handling while hunting and since I’m not a tall guy I use the the shorty almost exclusively and love it. I’ve only taken some small game with it so far but with a round ball it be plenty for deer and hopefully by the end of this coming weekend I will know for sure. Now all that being said just in what little I’ve shot the 36” I can tell you the extra 10” of barrel makes a world of difference in accuracy and range for both round ball and shot.
     
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  14. Nov 14, 2019 #34

    Britsmoothy

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    How? What is the difference buddy?
     
  15. Nov 15, 2019 at 4:48 AM #35

    bud in pa

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    I tried 1F in my 20 ga. fowler as 2f & 3f were not giving me decent patterns. if I remember 70 gr. of 1f and 1 oz. of #6 shot gave me 25 yd killing patterns, and penetrated the proverbial tuna can. Good enough for me, I don't think that we have any 75 ft. trees here.
     
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  16. Nov 18, 2019 at 11:34 AM #36

    Loyalist Dave

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    No actually, the shot column in a smooth bore may rotate a tad perpendicular to the direction imparted by the barrel, as it moves toward the muzzle. It's a lot less of a twist than you get from firing from a rifled barrel, but it does happen. It's a balance between the inertia of the shot column and the velocity imparted by the main charge. Thus, too much velocity "blows" the pattern into the donut. Modern very full choked, screw-in chokes are often made with straight grooves..., for the same reason...to halt any possible rotation of the shot column. A rather expensive manufacturing step if it was just for show, eh? ;)

    LD
     
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  17. Nov 18, 2019 at 11:34 AM #37

    FlinterNick

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    The shorter barrel works fine for hunting, the velocity and accuracy change is not significant enough to affect its use or hunting purpose. The longer 40-46 inch barrels were mainly a military specification, higher velocities were considered essential for the tactics of the time period.

    The 1.5 to 2 lbs of weight you’ll save vs a military musket is more significant for hunting.
     
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  18. Nov 18, 2019 at 1:17 PM #38

    Britsmoothy

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    While we are talking Indian trade gun by Pedersoli I dumped about 70g of powder. Then a 1/8 card soaked in olive oil.
    Then placed a large patch, greased with beeswax and olive oil on the muzzle.
    For dumb legal reasons I then thumbed five .36" balls into the patch and did not care a jot for their looseness. Finished off with an over shot card shot this group at thirty yards.
    IMG_20191115_135456368.jpg
     
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  19. Nov 18, 2019 at 6:34 PM #39

    JoeU

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    At the moment for as much as I’ve practiced with it 25 yards is about max distance for the 26” shorty for what I consider acceptable groups for hunting, around 2-4 inches with a RB and that’s with a rear sight (previous owner installed it). As far as shot goes the pattern opens up quick even at 25 yards but would still feel comfortable with shooting small game at that distance. The 36” has an extra foot of barrel to keep that shot together and longer time for more powder to burn up. This is just my limited experience so far. I’ve only been shooting these guns since spring of this year. At this point if I could only have one I would choose the longer barrel over the shorty. That being said since the areas I hunt are thick and I like getting close to game the shorty works for me.
     
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  20. Nov 18, 2019 at 8:08 PM #40

    FlinterNick

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    Personally I think 39/40 is a good length for 60-66 caliber, but 34-38 inches is a nice sized barrel, I wouldn’t call it short, its just not musket length if you’re gona compare it to say a Brown Bess. Personally I think a lighter arm is better for hunting, the Jim Chambers British Officers Fusil is perfect weight and length for the caliber and style of stock and it only weights around 7 lbs.
     
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